Forgotten Refugees == Some background and context

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on March 30, 2008 at 8:19am

In this case, I agree with all of what John wrote.

The essence of the "Palestinian Narrative" is

Innocent Arab and Muslim victims
of
Evil Zionist violence

and that

Arab and Muslims and Jews and Christians
have lived in harmony in all of the Muddle
East before the evil (all European)
Zionists colonized what became Israel

and that

there were really no Jews in what became
the British Mandate of Palestine.

and that

all Jews are (essentially) from Europe.

The demonstrable facts are really very, very different.

Most of the demonstrable myths of the "Palestinian Narrative" are unquestioningly accepted by many because they really do not (want to) know all of the relevant facts.

Without a knowledge and the appropriate consideration of all of the relevant facts, most attempts at peacemaking only serve to incite rather help to resolve the dispute.

Be well...
Paul RETI
Sydney OZ

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Permalink Reply by Neri Bar-On on March 30, 2008 at 1:55pm

I agree with you Habib,

With all respect for people who immigrate from the place they born, the "Jews" manage to integrate with other Jewish communities, while the Palestinian immigrants failed to integrate in other places.

This is not to blame one side or the other, it is important to respect the unique state of the Palestinians.

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Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on March 31, 2008 at 10:37am

Yes Neri. The circumstances of the Palestian refugees are different from all other refugees.

So WHY really is that so?

Can we really help to solve their problems without understanding WHY those problems exist?

John Pilger's slogan "it's the occupation stupid!" is cute and catchy but is not the answer.

Be well...
Paul RETI
Sydney OZ

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Permalink Reply by Neri Bar-On on March 31, 2008 at 12:33pm

On March 27, 1948, a meeting was held in Hiafa concerning the fate of the Bedouin of Arab al-Ghawarina in the Haifa area. "They must be removed from there, so that they, too, will not add to our troubles," Yosef Weitz, of the Keren Kayemeth (Jewish National Fund), wrote in his personal diary. Two months later, Weitz reported to the organization's director, "Our Haifa Bay has been evacuated completely and there is hardly a remnant of those who encroached our border." They were probably expelled to Jordan; some were allowed to remain in the village of Jisr al-Zarqa.

source





It is not the occupation, it is the culture structure; but to understand that we need to get deep into the nature of human psyche. The work of Don Beck on Spiral Dynamics Integral show it and he is working now with palestinians to support a change.

To understand why this problem exist we need to use a tool that can describe human development from the roots of the tribe to the top of the corporate world. we should not base our solution in history, we need to take the solution from the future since it is our responsibility to create it.

This post and discussion is a trap that try to make a complex thing un-solvable by bringing not-relevant narratives as the one of jewish minorities in the Arab world. There are normal human structure of change and at this point Israel society and Palestine society trapped in a deadly dance and to get out of it we need new vision of future and not old description of failure.

Are you serving the change for peaceful middle east or are you enjoying "Blame game" / "how suffer most game" / "how advocate for this human rights game"?

I put this hard question to you, but any one from any side should ask him/her self this question.



There are real children in the future of this children, some of them in Gaza, Betlehem, Jerusalem, Haifa, Tel-Aviv etc. and this kind of academic "i am right and you are wrong" discussion are not helping us to secure their future.

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Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on March 31, 2008 at 1:22pm

Neri,

You set the scene with another example of the blame (the Jews) game. Yet you then suggest that one should not play the "blame game." I will not respond in kind, now.

Your blame game move above and your Jewish conspiracy insinuations elsewhere seem to me to be inconsistent with what you then go on to advocate.

People here continue to play "the blame game." So have you, Neri. I simply joined to try to prove that most of the blame game assumptions are just factually incorrect.

WHY the factually incorrect assumtions continue to be made and are believed are, in my view, important to and relevant for finding viable solutions.

Your plea at the end is, of course, valid.

I think though that it is important to try to identity openly, as you ackowledge WHY "The circumstances of the Palestian refugees are different from all other refugees."

Unless we do that and openly face the answer, in my view, we will get nowhere better than the mess the Muddle East is in now. And the circumatances keep on changing. So the target is a moving target.

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Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on March 31, 2008 at 3:31pm

However I am really beginning to think now that the political game Palestian refugees are different from all other refugees will probaly continue regardless of what Israel does, for a long, long time.

Why? Because people other than the Jews and Arabs who now live in Gaza and on the West Bank, and in Isreal will continue to meddle in and incite the conflict.

Despite that I remain optimistic. :-)

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Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on March 30, 2008 at 9:25am

Habib wrote: "Israeli policies can be justified , especially denying the palestinian right of return by invoking the concept of "population exchange" .

Population exchange has been used in the past to settle such disputes. The creation of India, and Pakistan and Bangladesh are one such example; that issue is from the same period.

From my perspective

1) Being a refugee sucks.
2) All decades-old refugee issues other than that of Palestinian refugees have been (re)solved or just ignored by the world. I am not saying that is all good, and that the results were truly equitable. But that really seems to be a fact and all those other disputes are no longer generally perceived to be unresolved.

Habib: You and many in the world seem to think and act like Palestian refugees are different from all other refugees. WHY really is that so?

Be well...
Paul RETI
Sydney OZ

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Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on March 30, 2008 at 1:56pm

Sorry. I think that you really you miss my point entirely.

Most refugees are not guilty of anything. That also apples to the Palestians.

So I ask again: You and many in the world seem to think and act like Palestian refugees are different from all other refugees. WHY really is that so?

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Permalink Reply by Neri Bar-On on March 30, 2008 at 2:09pm

Dear RETI,

you know that every person is unique, as you are a person and I am a person we have different realety.

When some one relates toyou he/she do not relate to me, when some one repect you, it does not mean he/she respect me.

Same goes to the condition of refugees, the Jewish refugees are in different life condition then the Palestinian refugees. As all people who suffer deserve our support we should not think the Jew-sh refugees condition is same then Palestinian refugees.

In respect to peace in the middle east, it is clear that the Palestinian condition i far more critical then the Jewish condition in Israel and in the world.

Such emotionally movies that show a phenomena in the Jewish sphere does not mean that israel should behave as any other country (Arab, China or Western) for the middle east one of the core phenomena that dis-stabilities the region is the Palestinian refugee.

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Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on March 30, 2008 at 3:00pm

I agree Neri that NOW the "Palestinian condition is far more critical then the Jewish condition in Israel and in the world.

I ask again why is that so?

I ask again why solutions that work and have worked for other refugees have not been and are not implemented for the Palestinian refugees?

You chide me Neri for providing ONE "emotionaly movie that show a phenomena in the Jewish sphere". Such emotional material has been the basis of the public Palestinian case for many many years. This site also has many such examples.

Let's just get a bit more consistent and really equitable. Please!

Do you want to ignore or condone blatant double standards! If so why?

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Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on March 30, 2008 at 2:03pm

This story is very relevant if all and not just some of the directly affected people are relevant.

Why do you think Habaib that this story is NOT directly relevant?

And so I ask again: You and many in the world seem to think and act like Palestian refugees are different from all other refugees. WHY really is that so?

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Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on March 30, 2008 at 3:06pm

Hi Habib,

Why do you think that all of what you propose would not help?

==PmR

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