Very interesting article- the Palestinians are their own worst enemy

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Neri Bar-On on April 3, 2008 at 9:40pm

I do not what do you mean?

II am not Arab, I do not have the knowledge (Arabic) and internal connectedness to the Arab nation not I am Jewish since I am consciously not see myself as jewish.

I know some Israelis will think I am Arab since I believe we should create a Israel as democratic where Arabs and Jews can be equal. and most Arabs may think I am a jew since I born in Israel and speak hebrew.

I do not care how you want to call me, I am committed to good of any human and I do not have the categories you have on people.

What are you? Human Jew, Human Arab or Human like me?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Yigal D. Kahana on April 3, 2008 at 9:24pm

No Neri,
You completely misunderstand me. And then put words in my mouth that don't belong there.
If you read my posts carefully, you'll see that I take pains not to generalize about groups in the way you suggest.

I do not see all Palestinians as Hamas or I would not be here. Period.
And I wouldn't have to to ask the question I asked you.

Rather, it seems you are generalizing that all Palestinians are as reasonable as our friend Habib here. Which is also false.

Because, when you wrote "as early as we will have Human tissue here in the middle east with humanistic code to restructure and fuse Israel and Palestine" you make it seem as if the Palestinians as a group are amenable to a "humanistic code."
Now even though we agree that some Palestinians are amenable to that, and may even want that with all of their hearts,
it does not change the fact that they are seen by some other Palestinians as collaborators and traitors precisely because of that.

So it is a perfectly reasonable question I asked you.
Let me rephrase it.

Given that there is a division within Palestinain society on a great many issues, and given that Hamas and other terror groups make up a significant, eve predominant portion of PA society, and have most of the physical might (guns, money, intimidation-power) within PA society, how do you think the PA can adopt a "humanistic code" over the objections of Hamas/AAMB/IJ?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Yigal D. Kahana on April 3, 2008 at 10:07pm

Neri,

I never claimed that "all Palestinian are the same."
Or that they are all Hamas.

On the other hand, I do see you making the exact opposite mistake, of the mistake you accuse me of making.

You ignore Hamas and seem to want to act as though they are not a stakeholder in PA society, and don't represent any Palestinians,
and won't be an obstacle to implementing a human rights regime, and building human rights institutions in the PA.

So again I ask you, how can human rights institutions grow in the PA, while anti-democratic, anti-human rights organizations like Hamas and AAMB and IJ remain significant forces in PA society?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Neri Bar-On on April 3, 2008 at 10:18pm

Sorry to miss represent you, please be patient with me and correct me;

I do not think all Palestinian are moderate, I think the Moderate palestinians need to take responsibility to the young Palestinian nation and fight the extremist. Israel cannot win the extremist since the war on the extremist prove to generate more generation of extremists.

But I do know this group exist as in http://BuildPalestine.org/ and I recognize this is a hard internal struggle for palestinians. In Israel we have a "Democratic" system that make our fight with Israeli extremist less deadly.

the Devision in the Palestinian and Israeli society is not flat, it has a structure we discuss within the Spiral Dynamics model of general human development that apply to any society. in http://BuildPalestine.org/ page you will find a sketch of it, but believe me this is one of the most practical models exist and you are invited to research it deeper. (send me a message and I'll send you more materials).

Hamas is not a terror group it a developed movement that goes through phases. you can find similar analysis in Dr. Beck Lecture about the ANC in south africa here.

and he say (with SDI color codes ...) :
-----
What I’m trying to say to you, as gently as I can – and I’ll say it in Palestine starting tomorrow – here is a strategy for defusing, taking the stinger, out of the radical RED-to-BLUE system. It’s not Hamas. It’s RED-to-BLUE. There are elements of Hamas that are very intelligent blue. And we met some of them. And I’m sure there are some elements in Hamas which are BLUE-to-ORANGE. So Hamas is not a monolith. And the more we can speak in terms of the spectrums of differences.

I helped FW De Klerk to see ANC RED, ANC RED-BLUE, ANC BLUE, ANC ORANGE. And once he could see ANC ORANGE, then it became possible to strike a deal, because Afrikaaner had moved to ORANGE. And with Mandela – bless his saintly heart – he would ask me: am I being BLUE enough for you? I’d say “No, you need to give a BLUE speech to your youth and colleges, insisting that they exhibit discipline”.
-----

I recommend to see all the videos and understand the system of color codes.

So the movement that are radical and extreme must evolve and accept the moderate group leadership (moderates are not people that love Israel, they are people who think that it is important and honorable to create education system and good economic system for the children of Palestine and this is possible without removing Israel) . This is a component in the Palestinian change that must accrue in order we be able to create peaceful society in the Middle east and from what I see the shift started,

Within the Hamas as within South Africa ANC there are people who can understand that. it is painful process but it has to happened, signatures on paper proved not to be enough in order to stop our bloody dance of 100 year.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Yigal D. Kahana on April 3, 2008 at 11:57pm

Ok Neri,

There is much useful material in what you have written above.
In fact, what you have written in a couple of places above makes me think that you really already know the truth of the main point I was trying to make in my comments above.
I hope you can make a conscious effort to include that in your future ruminations and ponderings on these matters.

You wrote:
"movement that are radical and extreme must evolve and accept the moderate group leadership"
Agreed. And you must know that Israeli leadership is already a great deal more "moderate," in that sense, than PA leadership.
Thats why you wrote:
"I recognize this is a hard internal struggle for palestinians. In Israel we have a "Democratic" system that make our fight with Israeli extremist less deadly."
That's the same reason why I started the "Quo Vadis Palestine" discussion.
I would like to see us (Israel) helping as much as possible with the process of instilling human rights in the development of PA.
But first there must be a very practical, open-eyed analysis
of the situation, and the obstacles to success.
Hamas, and AAMB, and IJ, are a significant obstacle to making that progress in the PA.
No comparable obstacle exists within Israel (despite Mohammed's claim that Kach is), and creating a regime that respects human rights on both sides would change the way the Israeli government does things a lot less than it would change the way the Palestinian government does things.
So most of the hard work of creating a human rights regime in the area must be done on the PA side.

I'm not saying that Israel has no work to do on that front.
I'd never say that. Israel has plenty to do.
But the PA has a lot more. And we must keep that in mind if we truly care about human rights more than about labels.

Permalink Reply by Neri Bar-On on April 3, 2008 at 10:26pm

Israeli extremists & Palestinian extremists are people who think that there is one solution in the Old testament, Quran, Zionist vision, Karl Marx text etc. and that there is one way to achieve it and it is so true that they have right to any one within their society that do not see and agree to them is the enemy and it is legitimate to use force against their own people and the other side people.

These people will do that because they think that what they personally recognize as true&just is what true&just.

in other word, any one who think that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has a solution that the only way the problem disappear when the other side disappear.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on April 4, 2008 at 2:39am

Yes Neri.

The fundamentalist faiths of many persuasions are some of the key drivers of this ongoing conflict. In that group I include some purely political and not just theistic faiths.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Neri Bar-On on April 4, 2008 at 10:12am

Just me,

Can we read your view as well of who is extremists?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on April 4, 2008 at 12:06pm

Hi "Just Me"

I did not really use the word extremist.

I was simply talking generally about people who are doctrinally driven by an ideology. In that group I include all who are crusading advocates and adherents of a political or theistic faith.

Some but not all such people consider their truth to be the only truth, and are unable and unwilling to coexist peacefully with others whose truths may be different. It is just this sub-group, that I'd call extremist.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Eyal Herzberg on April 4, 2008 at 5:19am

Yigal, (et al ;))

you write:
Hamas, and AAMB, and IJ, are a significant obstacle to making that progress in the PA.
No comparable obstacle exists within Israel (despite Mohammed's claim that Kach is)

I beg to differ.
The Israeli Jewish settlers in the OPT and their supporters, who are a large, well armed and highly motivated minority, have shown a great commitment as well as capacity to ignore and actively resist democratic decisions that they disagree with. They do not shy from making statements, backed by violent actions, that are aimed at instilling fear in the hearts of other Israelis, as to the repercussions of trying to remove them from the OPT, even if this decision is made by the democratically elected government. They do not shy from suggesting any government that would make such a decision is illegitimate, and will be ignored. They show disrespect to the institutions of law and order in Israel, and some even go as far as to say they do not accept their authority.
Their leaders constantly question the legitimacy and loyalty of 20% of Israeli citizens (the Israeli Arabs), and use this as an excuse to undermine the validity of any decision made in the Israeli parliament that is backed by the Arab parliament members. Many of them go even further as to question the loyalty of any left wing supporters and consider them enemies of the state.
Israeli policies have shown a great tendency to be influenced by these views. Building in the OPT has not been curbed, collective punishment of Palestinians, massive violence resulting in many civilian casualties... The facts speak for themselves.

I think the situation is more balanced than you care to admit.

I think for Israel to be able to help the Palestinians with "the process of instilling human rights in the development of PA", we had better acknowledged our own faults first.

'If you have come here to help me then you are wasting your time; but if you have come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together' -Lilla Watson- Aboriginal activist

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Yigal D. Kahana on April 4, 2008 at 5:44am

Eyal,
I repect your begging to differ, and there is some truth in what you write,
but your comparison is just way way off.
No group of "settlers" has ever thrown any Israeli govt. official off a roof during a coup.
If you can't see the vast difference in magnitude between the weight of extremists in PA society and that in Israel, perhaps you are really not looking very clearly.
The situation will be more balanced than you think I think it is when I can go to Kever Yosef or the Har HaBayit to pray and there will be no Waqf guard or Magavnik to tell me I can't.
In other words, the situation is more unbalanced than you care to admit.
And I can give you 20 examples off the top of my head to prove it.
Just ask.

That said, I agree with your comments
"I think for Israel to be able to help the Palestinians with "the process of instilling human rights in the development of PA", we had better acknowledged our own faults first."

'If you have come here to help me then you are wasting your time; but if you have come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together' -Lilla Watson- Aboriginal activist"

But aren't you one of us, acknowledging "our" faults?
I am also not hesitant to admit our faults. As are many Jews and Israelis.
Seems like more Israelis than Arabs, given the discussion I tried to start about just that subject right here on mepeace - which nobody else cared enough to respond to.
But admitting our faults is not the same as overestimating them just to sound fair.
Or ignoring the faults of others because we are obsessed with criticising ourselves.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Eyal Herzberg on April 4, 2008 at 7:15am

"No group of "settlers" has ever thrown any Israeli govt. official off a roof during a coup."
I suggest you refresh your reading of the evacuation of Kfar Darom.

"The situation will be more balanced than you think I think it is when I can go to Kever Yosef or the Har HaBayit to pray and there will be no Waqf guard or Magavnik to tell me I can't."
You must be joking. Palestinian freedoms are so much more restricted, I cannot even believe you are giving me this example.

"But aren't you one of us, acknowledging "our" faults?"
I agree.
And I would really like to see more responses from our Palestinian friends to that effect, and more responses from other Palestinian/Arab members of mepeace in general.
I was thinking about this a lot in the last few days, and thinking that perhaps a lot of the blame lies in the language barrier. Most of the active members here have native language capabilities in English. Most of the people actually involved in the conflict do not.
Any ideas how to overcome this?

• ▶ Reply

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• Next ›
• Page