A new obstacle

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Neri Bar-On on February 27, 2010 at 3:41pm

Dear friend,

I have no doubt that the Netanyaho statements about the Palestinian state and the Jewish holy places send a signal of avoidance to the Palestinians. I would like to point out the the "politician level where the "negotiation" is taking place is not relevant today at all.


1) Israel must halt and clearly withdraw from the Settlements in West Bank not as "negotiation" elment rather as a recognition of a respected territory for the Palestinian state.

2) Palestine must solve the political split of Hamas ad Fatah, while this exist there is no way to negotiate as you cannot close deal with one part of the Palestinians, you actually will bring criticism on them from their political enemies.

There is a lot to do between us, the Israelis and the Palestinians to work out respectful and fruitful relationships that can support the Palestinian National state emergence. This si not a negotiation practice, this is a transformation practice.

My answer is that we need not to wait, there is so much to create till the "political level" will be ready for agreements we must create that. especially when you take the situation of "donations" who are available sue to the conflict, all these donations will disappear day after the agreements so we need to start create the capacity for independence and freedom

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Permalink Reply by mika laiho on February 28, 2010 at 10:16pm

"2) Palestine must solve the political split ad Fatah or Hamas, while this exists there is no way to negotiate as you can not close deal with one part of the Palestinians, you actually will bring criticism on them from their political enemies."

++++ Few things about this. Fatah is the one who is internationally & by Israel recognized as negotiation partner. Hamas has proclaimed same thing. Also hamas has said, that they will accept fatah negotiated peace agreement. If someone sees differently this, you have missed statements made by hamas & fatah.

I think that this is just new version of old "we have no negotiation partner" claim. No, i don't mean that unification of palestine by political front is a anyhow bad idea, but look for a context. No place in the world has today a single voice in any democratic or non-democratic states. In any issue.

Same thing as palestinians would start to demand that Israel must be united to two state solution, hardly will never be. I think that you will know what i mean with this.

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Permalink Reply by Neri Bar-On on February 28, 2010 at 10:28pm

Mika,

There are Hamas people who can recognize Israel but if you talk with Palestinians you will learn the the divide is very deep and the gap within the Palestinian society is alarming.

There is nothing to negotiate, we know what need to be the borders, if we negotiate Israel adds more settlements as negotiation act and Palestinian declare they wish one state solution as negotiation gap.

we all know that there is going to be Palestinian state. we need to set the conditions for best Palestinian state which mean:
1) Israeli end of settlements and enable border agreements around 67 lines
2) Palestinian one political system, that will not break down into bloody fight as we experienced in Gaza

lets stop naive talk. Palestinians cannot sign agreements and Fatah do not have the charter to sign agreements and its not acceptable by palestinians and Israelis.

Israel stop of settlements is not part of negotiation, it part of change Israel need to go through its not a prise for the palestinians its a responsibility for Israel to enable Palestinian state,. but Palestinians deserve a better state then what Fatah suggest (corruption) or Hamas (religious state) having 67 borders but not political system will make the Palestinian weak and be abused again by Israel.

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Permalink Reply by loungegenie on March 1, 2010 at 8:30am

bravo Connie! Fasinating what you wrote here. You make me think of the native Americans and their view of the Palestine situation. They say, Same beast, new name."

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Permalink Reply by mika laiho on March 1, 2010 at 6:19pm

"There are Hamas people who can recognize Israel but if you talk with Palestinians you will learn the the divide is very deep and the gap within the Palestinian society is alarming."

++++ True, but what it has to do with peace seeking ?


"There is nothing to negotiate, we know what need to be the borders, if we negotiate Israel adds more settlements as negotiation act and Palestinian declare they wish one state solution as negotiation gap."

++++ Two state solution has been main goal for palestinians a long time. Last statements of "one state solution" are just a part of the game.


"we all know that there is going to be Palestinian state. we need to set the conditions for best Palestinian state which mean:
1) Israeli end of settlements and enable border agreements around 67 lines
2) Palestinian one political system, that will not break down into bloody fight as we experienced in Gaza"

++++ Good objectives. But that gaza situation between hamas and fatah & peace process in overall and its link to this, i don't get it.


"lets stop naive talk. Palestinians cannot sign agreements and Fatah do not have the charter to sign agreements"

++++ Palestinians have signed several agreements. And in fact it was a fatah who did it.


" and its not acceptable by palestinians and Israelis."

++++ It doesn't belong to Israel at all.


"Israel stop of settlements is not part of negotiation, it part of change Israel need to go through its not a prise for the palestinians its a responsibility for Israel to enable Palestinian state,. but Palestinians deserve a better state then what Fatah suggest (corruption) or Hamas (religious state) having 67 borders but not political system will make the Palestinian weak and be abused again by Israel."

++++ Its up palestinians what kind of state they wanna make.

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Permalink Reply by Neri Bar-On on March 1, 2010 at 6:42pm

Mika

The Palestinian society need Political unity and accept Israel existence. even if they Have Political unity and do not accept Israel we will be in better sotuation then now.

Palestinian divide is one of the elements that halts the ability to progress toward Palestinian state and enable the Israeli extremists to gain more political power for creating more settlements. While Israel society need to deal with the settlers (Israrel political divide) the Palestinians need to deal with Hamas Fatah war,

can you see what it has to do with peace seeking ?
gaza situation between hamas and fatah disable agreement signing and National state creation. this is what peace process is all about in overall ; Do you get it.


"one state solution" are just a part of the game.
its part of "negotiation" tactic that is stupid as it fuel violence and hate when we need to get real.


Its up palestinians what kind of state they wanna make.
my friend, with all respect the solution is "logical" and "social" Palestinian cannot make a decision to have "one Arab state solution" and get it peacefully. they do not have much of options. our role as activists is to form a path for a sustainable solution and its two state stage solution. stop talking as this is a child game and people can "decide what they want to be" here in the middle east - wrong decision can bring death its real life situation.

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Permalink Reply by mika laiho on March 1, 2010 at 8:50pm

"The Palestinian society need Political unity and accept Israel existence. even if they Have Political unity and do not accept Israel we will be in better sotuation then now."

++++ Both have done that allready.


"Palestinian divide is one of the elements that halts the ability to progress toward Palestinian state"

++++ I don't see how it can effect to that.


"and enable the Israeli extremists to gain more political power for creating more settlements."

++++ Same here. Reason for this is in somewhere else.

" While Israel society need to deal with the settlers (Israrel political divide) the Palestinians need to deal with Hamas Fatah war,"

++++ True. But its more domestic thing than bilateral matter.


"can you see what it has to do with peace seeking ?
gaza situation between hamas and fatah disable agreement signing and National state creation."

++++ These has nothing to do with peace agreement with Israel.

" this is what peace process is all about in overall ; Do you get it."

++++ No i don't get it ;). If and when they would make their disputes to history, next would be that they need a haircut.


""one state solution" are just a part of the game.
its part of "negotiation" tactic that is stupid as it fuel violence and hate when we need to get real."

++++ Its just rhetoric statement.


"Its up palestinians what kind of state they wanna make.
my friend, with all respect the solution is "logical" and "social" Palestinian cannot make a decision to have "one Arab state solution" and get it peacefully. they do not have much of options. our role as activists is to form a path for a sustainable solution and its two state stage solution. stop talking as this is a child game and people can "decide what they want to be" here in the middle east - wrong decision can bring death its real life situation."

++++ I can't go and say that this and that kind of a state you must create, to keep somebody else happy. That is called universally as a right of a self-determination.

Solving all the problems advance, not gonna work.

And believe me, in my experience i have seen that with my own eyes, say "boo" in middle-east and 30 000 peoples goes "ballistic".

This area around palestine state building has so much unwanted side effects that if same recipe would be needed to other states and their making, we would have a single state in the world. This has been made too difficult. In purpose ??

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Permalink Reply by loungegenie on March 1, 2010 at 9:15pm

"The Palestinian society need Political unity and accept Israel existence. even if they Have Political unity and do not accept Israel we will be in better sotuation then now."


Hamas is a unity government democratically elected. It seems Israel and US want to dictate what constitutes peace and everything else. That is hypocritical and dishonest to say the least. Hamas made it clear they were willing partners for a 2 state solution based on acceptence of Israel, but there is not a Palestinian alive nor any Arab who can sign away the Palestinian right of return. That will never happen. There is not a Palestinian on earth now or later who can accept Israel's "right" to exist. They can only accept that Israel does exist and they will recognize Israel defacto. Your leaders know this very well and obviously demand terms that are impossible for Palestinian leaders. Let us bring this fact into the equasion and ponder the source for peace.

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Permalink Reply by Michael Weis on March 2, 2010 at 4:52am

Hamas (and Fatah) jail each other's members with no trial. Hamas (and probably Fatah as well) kill their detained opponents and throw them off from several stories up a building.

Hamas makes it very clear that it wants to destroy Israel. That's the only thing clear about it.

There are over a million Palestinians that accept Israel's right to exist. They are Israeli citizens of course. Palestinian leaders (Fatah) have already accepted Israel's right to exist (but not Hamas).

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Permalink Reply by loungegenie on March 2, 2010 at 6:28am

To demand that Palestinians recognize "Israel's right to exist" is to demand that a people who have been treated as subhumans unworthy of basic human rights publicly proclaim that they are subhumans. It would imply Palestinians' acceptance that they deserve what has been done and continues to be done to them. Even 19th-century US governments did not require the surviving native Americans to publicly proclaim the "rightness" of their ethnic cleansing by European colonists as a condition precedent to even discussing what sort of land reservation they might receive. Nor did native Americans have to live under economic blockade and threat of starvation until they shed whatever pride they had left and conceded the point. In Yasser's 1988 statement in Stockholm, he accepted "Israel's right to exist in peace and security." This language, significantly, addresses the conditions of existence of a state which, as a matter of fact, exists. It does not address the existential question of the "rightness" of the dispossession and dispersal of the Palestinian people from their homeland to make way for another people coming from abroad.

Permalink Reply by Basil Keilani on March 1, 2010 at 6:57am

The American people do not have to be against the occupation for the occupation to end. You just need a sizeable amount of American Jews and more Americans to question Israel. Also, Europe has shifted more and more to being critical of Israel. It's harder and harder for Israel to play the victim. Granted, there are Israeli victims of Arab fighting. I will not discount that. The fact is there is an occupation. There are settlements. They need to end.

Netanyahu has stated he wants to negotiate with Palestinians without preconditions. That's very Orwellian in terms of talk. He is engaging in New Speak. Why? He says Palestinians must accept Jerusalem as completely Israeli and Israel is a Jewish state. That's imposing conditions. Israel also says when Palestinians don't want to talk while Israel builds settlements that Palestinians are imposing conditions that were not imposed before. It's simple, Israel is violating international law, destroying villages. Israel acts like it should be rewarded for a fake settlement freeze.

Then, Netanyahu, in repeat of 1997, seems to send the Mossad for another stupid assassination of a Hamas figure. It doesn't advance peace. In 1997, he used Canadian passports. We can't prove Israel did this, but many of the people had Israeli nationalities, so Israel would have had their information. Israel has the motive. I understand with espionage and intelligence you may use fake passports, but in the 21st century people don't tolerate this. Israel looks more and more stuck in the past in the eyes of many people. Where is Israel showing it wants peace?
We can't prove Israel's leadership has commissioned this thing, but it has done something similar before. I don't sympathize with Hamas, but Hamas appears to be calming the situation in Gaza. Every time Hamas does that, Israel seems to want to provoke Hamas to show Americans that Palestinians are savages, so they can distract Americans and build more settlements. Israel in the relationship with Palestinians is a game player, it's not interested in a truly committed relationship with Palestinians, just to give words and be a player kind of like a guy who pretends he cares about a girl and has nice talk and then he treats her like she is nothing and tries to make as if everything is her fault.

I don't think assassinations, continuing to build while saying there is a freeze and saying all of Jerusalem should be for Israel is a display of truly peaceful intentions. Also, he declared some areas Israeli heritage sites.
It's a mentality of a colonizer and occupier. It's fine to say they are Jewish heritage sites, and to work with the PA to promote them for piligrims, but, no, Israel wants to build there on occupied land. Israel keeps shooting itself in the foot. Netanyahu is promoting the Palestinian cause and so is the Israeli right. In reality, Israel cannot live on air and unleavened bread and manna from heaven. It needs the international community and America, alone, is not enough. I think Jews who want to worship and pray in the West Bank should be welcomed. However, calling things Israeli heritage sites and ignoring the fact that it's in occupied territory shows malfoi as they say in French, or bad faith.

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Permalink Reply by loungegenie on March 1, 2010 at 9:31am

The Israeli tactics are clearly understood by the people who live in the Palestinian Territories. Restrict, inflame and provoke the Palestinian people to react violently so the Israeli can use more overwhelming military force. The more the Israeli can destroy of the Palestinian society over time changes the true realities on the ground to favor the Israeli position. Over time as the old get older and die who is to say that there was once a mosque or Palestinian village once stood there.


The Israeli tactics are also clear to observers. It's just gotten to that point. The same old excuses, the peace process that just buys the time to build more settlements. It has been successfully systematic over a hundred years yet has taken so long due to Palestinian resistance that it became transparant. People are not stupid! The Palestinians were right with the intifadas, they were right to resist and I have never judged what form they chose. I am not the one who is colonized so who am I to judge? It is not my house an immigrant is sitting in! It is not my family murdered or starved! No, I have never judged the Palestinian. I want for them justice because only then will there be peace.

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