America finally condemned our govrament

And the majority of Israelis and Israel supporters really exited about it :)

It feels good for so many reasons and a much much needed reaction. (its not much of a discussion just felt the need to share my feelings and my hopes from a combination of a right wing Israeli gov and a democratic american gov. The time for final solution is now

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Permalink Reply by Tanya Kasim on March 11, 2010 at 7:26am

America got slapped in the face, kaman.

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Permalink Reply by Ohad Bracha on March 11, 2010 at 5:07pm

Hi Tanya.

look what we had yesterday. Joe Bidden came to Israel.. it could ended up just like always, he would say "America is obligated for the peace process and invite all sides to the table and yada yada yada" Bibi would say " Israel is ready for peace and then something about security and yada yada yada" and Abbas will say the Palestinians are ready for peace but the occupation yada yada yada" and nobody will care about all that.
instead America condemned Israel.. and for what is very important! ... for building in east Jerusalem, America has no problem when they need too to say that Jerusalem will stay united for ever.
Even Obama just said that before he got elected.
we are not talking about Jerusalem BC of a Palestinians intifada or American pressure we are talking about Jerusalem bc of the Israeli actions in Jerusalem , and BC the Israeli government is ready to talk about east Jerusalem. thas a great thing!. and look all of a sadden the Israeli left is coming out of its cave and start talking.
on the Palestinians side the entire Arab league is united behind Abbas that's amazing. and talking about not talking is just as good as talking.
the worst thing is when there are no talks at all about peace.

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Permalink Reply by Tanya Kasim on March 11, 2010 at 5:54pm

There's an expression for that in Arabic: 7akee fadi, or empty talk, so you're right about that, Ohad. BIden is coming to Jordan, also.

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Permalink Reply by Ohad Bracha on March 11, 2010 at 6:01pm

Tanya ... empty talks may be but still talks :)

http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3861291,00.html

try google translate

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Permalink Reply by Tanya Kasim on March 11, 2010 at 6:15pm

Thanks!

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Permalink Reply by Basil Keilani on March 13, 2010 at 8:19pm

Ohad,

I told you a few months ago,that the Israeli Left is going to return in Israel. Part of the reason is because of Netanyahu and also they realized how bad things went in Gaza and didn't like it, and many Palestinians are leading non-violent protests.

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Permalink Reply by Yigal D. Kahana on March 11, 2010 at 8:05pm

A "final solution" Ohad?
What an unfortunate choice of words!

Just so you know, America itself doesn't care much about Joe Biden, who just rode Obama's coat-tails;
and more than half of the country thinks our government is headed in the wrong direction anyway.
And this non-event didn't make the news here in Dallas.
So I don't feel as if America got slapped in the face at all.
Many of us Americans were glad to see Biden get what he deserves, and can't wait for the message we'll send him and his boss in November.
US administrations come and go. Israel's leaders need to do what's best for the cause of freedom, irrespective of what any particular US administration may say.

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Permalink Reply by Ohad Bracha on March 11, 2010 at 8:17pm

Yigal I understand what you are saying

first you are right a more proper term would be a final agreement between Israel and Palestine , or end of the conflict. english is not my first lenguege
now I know that Jerusalem is a very painful topic and even me as an atheist understand the importence of this city for the jeiwish nation tradition and history.
but most Israelis understand today that in order to maintain a democracy that keeps a Jewish majority inside Israel east Jerusalem must not be part of Israel.
its a hard decision that we need to make as a nation if we want to be a minority in an Arab country (that most likely will start as an apartheid country) or to have Israel , I think most Israelis already made this decision as very very painful and "unfair" as it is.

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Permalink Reply by Yigal D. Kahana on March 11, 2010 at 10:07pm

Hi Ohad,

You are raising very deep and complex issues. I hope that next time I am in Israel, we get a chance to talk about them in the needed depth, and in person.
So as not to write a very, very long post now, let me just point out that the definition of "East Jerusalem" can be pretty flexible. It is certainly not always used to mean the same exact thing by everyone.
I hope you're not saying you think the Kotel HaMa'aravi, or the Jewish Quarter of the Old City, must not be part of Israel; because that would be a completely impractical suggestion.

VP Biden repeated what has become a brainless mantra for US officials. Palestine must be a "viable" state.
Think about what "viable" really means for a moment. Luxembourg is viable on a tiny area.
Viablity doesn't depend on some number of square miles, it depends on the stability and sanity of the policies under which the state will be administered!
If, as you say, Palestine will start as an apartheid country, then it will not in fact be "viable," but will be unstable instead. We will see Hamas take it over, or someone else just like them in ideology.
Palestine would at that point be no more viable than Sudan or Somalia, or the current Afghan or Iraqi governments would be without active US support, no matter where its official borders were.

As far as simple logistics, I still think that a one-state solution would be best, no matter who would be in the majority. The obvious political problem that keeps trumping that is, that for a one state solution to fly, everyone must understand the difference between 'democracy' and the 'tyranny of the majority,' and group feeling will have to be built around the concept of freedom of religion.

That is, apparently, too much to ask...

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Permalink Reply by Ohad Bracha on March 11, 2010 at 10:50pm

Ygal the Borders are already known to everybody , its pretty much based on the 1967 borders with some minor changes.
in Jerusalem Jewish neighborhoods will remain Israelis and Arab neighborhoods will be Palestine. both sides already agreed on that prety much.
now I dont know if you dont understand my post or are you twisting what I am saying but the risk of an apartheid state is in a case of a one state solution. in the case of a two state solution Israel could be a democracy to all its citizens and Palestine can be what ever they want to be.
now since you dont live in Israel you might not care that we in Israel will become a minority in an Arab state. but most Israelis do care about it. and oppose the one state solution completely .
in any way you will still be able to visit the kotel and the jewish qurter in a two sate solution.

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Permalink Reply by Yigal D. Kahana on March 11, 2010 at 11:27pm

Ohad,
You are oversimplifying a very complex issue.
The Borders are not already known to or agreed upon by everyone,
What those minor changes you refer to will exactly be, is a major issue.
Otherwise building more units in the Jewish neighborhood of Ramat Shlomo would not be causing any controversy.

Just because I may not have used your words the way you meant, doesn't mean I misunderstood you.
What I said remains true. Please think about it logically, and not emotionally. The viability of any political system is an objective matter.

The sad thing here is that the reason that you (and most Israelis) fear a one-state solution is that you expect that if the Arab population rises to the level of a majority in Israel, Israel will become a discriminatory, apartheid state - against Jews. But that wouldn't happen if you forced people to respect the freedom of religion. So the answer must be pushing everyone involved to accept freedom of religion; and not to try to escape from them, while leaving them as malignant as ever and right next-door; still planning to come after you later.

I'm just saying that even setting up two states, without addressing the underlying fundamentalist discrimination and violence in the Palestinian one of them, will not be a "viable' solution either.

(And also, please don't descend to the level of ad hominem arguments?)

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Permalink Reply by Ohad Bracha on March 11, 2010 at 11:36pm

yigal this is where I think we are not communicating. you see Jewishness as a religion I see it as nationality and identity. and to me and to most Israelis a Jewish nation is very very important. a place that we can call home, where the language is our language and the costumes are our costumes. it has nothing to do if a one state will be an apartheid state or America it could not be Israel. and Israel is important to me very very much.
I don't think I simplifying any thing I don't think you are either. this is an on going debate in Israel between mostly the right wing settlers ,some Communist and non Zionists groups and the rest of us Israelis.
personally I will fight to the end so we will never have a one state solution BC the one state solution is the end of Israel.

P.S if we will get to a one state solution israel will be an aparthid state to arabs. not to jews at the moment we are the strong and this not going to change at the begining even when we are a minority. Israel must stay a democracy and a home land to the jewish nation