America finally condemned our govrament

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Permalink Reply by Ari Greenblatt on March 17, 2010 at 5:05pm

I am all for democracy.

I do strongly feel that we still give over the the Arab and Muslim world a strong message that 'we are different'.

I know you are not religious but as a famous Hassidic rabbi once said, the only relevant faith is G-d's faith in us !

This being the case, i wish to also appeal to you to consider the strong bond of all our neighbours and beyond to faith. We have to trust ourselves enough to become much more integrated, fluent Arabic is just the start, knowledge of the Quran a second step, its basic good manners to be able to converse with one's neighbours on this level.

Wouldn't you like to take a train to Tehran, or a bike to Baghdad,en route to Beirut ?
How would you talk to people and what about ? Only about Humus and saying Yallah ? Arabic is their language and Islam their passion!

I believe that together with all the values you are protecting, there is place for more integration and appreciation of our neighbour's culture and who they are as people.

This is called peace coming from the heart and soul!

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Permalink Reply by Ohad Bracha on March 17, 2010 at 5:26pm

Ari I don't have an argument with you about that, we are living in the mid east and it is important that we will understand the mid east.

how many people in Tehran wants to be more open to the west? the Muslim society is not one solid thing the same as the Jewish one. and Israel is Israel and it has its place in Israel in the mid east and the world.
I can speak with many people about many stuff and almost never I speak about religion , you are closer to religion and you can speak about the Torah and Quran BC its impotent to you
I would love to go to Theran and Beirut and many other places

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Permalink Reply by Yigal D. Kahana on March 17, 2010 at 5:15pm

Ohad

I respect your answer. This is why I originally said it would be best if we could discuss this face to face, in real time. I think you bring a great sense of caring and urgency to the discussion.
I understand that you are focusing on Israel, but I am focusing here on the idea of resolving the conflict between Israel and the Arab countries around it, especially what may be Palestine. That requires understanding, and respecting, and focusing on how things happen on both sides, because ending the conflict requires getting both sides to end the conflict. And the conflict will not end until both sides agree it is over.
Israel can't end it unilaterally. As you agreed, was demonstrated in the summer of 2005.

Ari - to you too:

For now, I'll just say that part of the paradigm shift that is needed probably includes forgetting all about this "west"-"east" labeling business. It is very harmful, and eliminating the artificial constructs that flow from it, and focusing instead on objective and borderless Progress, makes intercultural activity so much more natural. Then we can more easily recognize that freedom of speech and religion are not just 'western' ideas, any more than gravity or green neon lights are, and that the only reason the so-called west succeeded in any way was because of the freedom of relgion that people there finally resorted to to end their endless infighting over religion.

It was not the superiority of their genes, it was the tolerance of the laws they finally passed, that accounted for whatever international predominance the alleged 'west' achieved. Good laws make even bad people good, while bad laws make good people bad. Enact good laws and society will improve. Simple as that.

Ari - there is much in the so-called west that Israel's neighbors unabashedly admire. That is a great possible focal point for positivity, as much as our learning to say "sbah el chayr" and 'mabrok," or even 'fitna' and 'asabiyya.' (Which is also a good thing, don't get me wrong.) And Israelis already say 'yalla' and 'sababa' and eat chummus more than anything else. And as Ohad mentioned, Israel has rich threads of many cultures within its social fabric. That is another existing focal point for peaceful coexistence that must be emphasized more.

A joke:
Q. Where is the line between east and west?
A. Between Baka al Gharbiyeh and Baka al Sharqiyeh.

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Permalink Reply by Ari Greenblatt on March 17, 2010 at 5:23pm

I hear you Yigal.

However, do you not think that there is also a deep resentment towards the West as a dominating element ? As such, we Israelis get labelled with this tag as well and it greatly deepens the divide we are trying to cross?

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Permalink Reply by Yigal D. Kahana on March 17, 2010 at 6:25pm

Yes, Ari, there sure is, and Israelis sure do.

We are talking about a delicate balancing act here.

In my experience, one way to deflect that resentment is to refuse to don the mantle of "western" in the first place, especially as Jews, who have experienced such misery for not being accepted as "western.' What do we need this construct for, created by Christians to benefit Christians in an long-dead era of Christian Supremacism, when it only hurts us, not least by being extremely inaccurate - even for European Christians?! We are bigger than that.
"Anatolia" meant "Eastland, "Hesperides" and "Occidens" meant Rome, and Greeks who created that scheme felt that they were at the center of the world. We are bigger than them too. The Greeks are now considered "Eastern Orthodox" as far as that 'west' is concerned.
And even in ancient Greek mythology, we find, at the bottom, that Europa herself came from Lebanon!

I've read "Clash of Civilizations" and while Huntington was correct in many of his observations, he contradicted himself in one giant way. He wrote (correctly) that:

"In 1918, Spengler denounced the myopic view of history prevailing in the West with its neat division into ancient, medieval, and modern phases relevant only to the West. It is necessary, he said, to replace this "Ptolemaic approach to history" with a Copernican one and to substitute for the "empty figment of one linear history, the drama of a number of mighty cultures." A few decades later Toynbee castigated the "parochialism and impertinence" of the West manifested in the "egocentric illusions" that the world revolved around it, that there was an "unchanging East," and that "progress" was inevitable. Like Spengler, he had no use for the assumption of the unity of history, the assumption that there is "only one river of civilization, our own, and that all others are either tributary to it or lost in the desert sands." Fifty years after Toynbee, Braudel similarly urged the need to strive for a broader perspective and to understand "the great cultural conflicts in the world, and the multiplicity of its civilizations." The illusions and prejudices of which these scholars warned, however, live on and in the late twentieth century have blossomed forth in the widespread and parochial conceit that the European civilization of the West is now the universal civilization of the world."

Despite having written this, Huntington also posited that:
"The clash between the multiculturalists and the defenders of Western civilization and the American Creed is, in James Kurth's phrase, "the real clash" within the American segment of Western civilization. Domestically this means rejecting the siren call for multiculturalism. Internationally it means rejecting the illusory siren calls to identify the United States with Asia....When Americans look to their cultural roots, they find them in Europe."
It is remarkable that the same author who cautioned against myopic views and parochial conceits relevant only to the "West," nonetheless adopted them by concluding that America's roots are decidedly Western, and to be found in Europe; but such contradictions are the inevitable result of adopting the basic misconceptions underlying the Myth of Western Civilization, which has become a commonplace.

Israel can't be held responsible for everything that everyone who calls himself 'western' does. Israelis need to lose the Myth of Western Civilization even more than Americans do, which is 'very urgently.' That Myth has always been the source of a great deal of unfair discrimination in Europe and America, and is also infecting Israel and its neighbors.

An example of how the contradictions play out in reverse: Imams decrying the evils of western influence over satellite TV, from mosques lit by green neon, while satellites and TV and green neon lights were themselves a direct product of what they are calling the west!

I believe in integration, based on self-respect as much as on mutual respect.

I also believe that knowledge confers power, and so, yes, it does behoove Israelis to educate themselves about all the things you mentioned above, in the context I've explained here.

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Permalink Reply by Basil Keilani on March 18, 2010 at 3:22am

Yigal, I am not sure where you are going with your critique of Samuel Huntington. Can you clarify what you mean? The saliency of the points are not quite clear, and I would appreciate the clarification.

I see Western Civilization and connections in this way geographically and with certain phases:

Western Civilization is said to trace to Mesopotamia before Greece and then we connect to Greece with demos cracia with Greek males in Athens being able to vote. The first connection is to the East and the system of laws, which Greece was influenced by it is said. That's the first part possibly.

Phase II:

Then, we had the primitive democracy in Athens. That may be our second part where there was the idea of equality between people, a breaking away from control by hereditary rulers.

Phase III:

The next phase of development was the Renaissance where the Catholic Church got weaker. Science flourished again, literacy increased, and the middle class emerged. Thus, there was again the spreading of power which existed in the Greek model. And then you had the idea of more individual power with the Protestant Reformation and the reform of the Catholic Church. And we had people like Isaac Newton and Galileo who were spiritual and believed there were mysteries in the universe, but not conventional church goers. By that time, serfdom or slavery for the poor was over.

Part IV:

Then, we go to the industrial revolution where more people have opportuntiy to be wealthy and there is competition. There is also an emerging idea of natural law, not the absolute power of kings or Divine Right. This lead to the overthrow of kings and ideas of the equality of people in front of the law.

Part IV:

Then after the American Revolution, you had pressure for voting rights to spread all over Western Europe and Europeans fought for them and America expanded the right to vote over time. With Europe, it was more of an evolution towards the idea of a balance between the collective with the individual and balancing the two. In the US, though there is a strong anti-elitist streak, elitism dominates with the government favoring corporate, elite forces over the polity. It's clearly out of balance and reactionary in terms of spreading more political equity and fairness. An example of this was the Supreme Court saying corporations can spend as much as they want politically. In Canada, it is as accentuated, but it's true there.
It's true all over the West, but more true in North America and more so for the US.


The constitution, at least, is a product of the enlightenment in terms of natural law and equality under the law and this is what it has in common with Western Europe.


Israelis often consider themselves Western. Israel is similar to the West in that it allows for voting that is meaningful. All Israelis can vote. One could add that in the US officially black people could vote in the 1960s in the North, but they still felt disonnected from the polity that is there was a democracy for white people. That has largely changed.

In Israel, it is a democracy at the service of the Jewish citizens. The disparity in power between the rights of the various communities is huge even within some Jewish communities like Haredim and Ethiopians and previously Sephardic, if still not today. Of course, prejudice is very strong in the US, but on paper minorities have recourse, have long served in cabinet posts. Jews could vote in the 1930s, but anti-Jewish laws in the US were accepted in America. The same in Canada. The rule of law broke down about 200 years ago with the Dreyfus Case in France. These things are not the norm in the West.


Can Israel be Western in the modern sense and have Zionism? Rav Kahane didn't believe so. Could that be with the 20-21% Arab Israeli population?
Can Lebanon, which has a democratic system, with different sects achieve a Western style democracy or a asymmetrical federalism? This would necessitate a liberalization of Lebanese society which has occured in Beirut and northern Lebanon, but the populous South which long fought Israel is strongly confessional. In Lebanon, attachment to nationality and confessionalism are neck and neck. Stability and peace could encourage for the balance to move toward the former.

Can Lebanon truly become a state for all Lebanese? Can Israel and Palestine become states where all citizens regardless of faith can have true equality? For me, that must happen eventually when the states are ready.

I don't see the need in 100 years of a confessional type system in Lebanon or Israel or Syria. We need to move to something where it should not matter if you are Alawite, Sunni, Druze, Jewish, or Catholic. It does matter and all sides need protection from improper sectarian interaction that encourages violence rather than peace. We are all human beings who can develop for the positive. I do believe in the ideals of Western Civilization in terms of the Enlightenment, but I don't care for Hollywood or commercials exploiting women to sell products or encouraging blind consumerism. Family bonds are important and so are healthy societies.

I just was giving my take of how I see how Western Civilization has come along and what I see as ideal and not ideal in various Western states and with certain Western ideas.





The ideas of equality between the law emanated from the East first. Later, west of Greece we had in the 1800s the concept of Natural Law, the breaking away from the control of the Catholic Church over areas in Western Europe, and that's Western Civilization in the modern sense, the product of the enlightenment which had as time went on an idea of a secular polity that ended the conflict between Catholics and Protestants, weakened the nobility to give the masses representation.

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Permalink Reply by Ohad Bracha on March 18, 2010 at 4:18am

you are covering a long long history... Israel exists for 62 years. and Zionism form national movement for Jews transformed today to a lot of deferent things, in general it means the support for Israel.

many like me believe that equal rights to all in Israel is a priority and an Israeli interest , that is the answer to your question if Israel can be "western" with Zionism. absolutely yes.

Europe by the way is western with nationalism still a big part of it.

I think that an Arab prime mister in Israel is an Israeli interest BC no Jewish prime minister can really help the Arab Israelis population, and I think the day that we will have one is not far, better yet an Arab Israeli president will be a great place to start.

by the way basil the majority in the world still believe that the Jewish people have a right for a national home land in Israel , even thou the debate in Israel is way more advanced then that today

Permalink Reply by Yigal D. Kahana on March 18, 2010 at 8:29am

Basil,

I'm saying the contradiction between his own statements reveals where he's making a big mistake. Rationally, there's no such thing as 'the west.' It has always been an illusion. Whatever was good about the Enlightenment was so because it was objective, not subjectively 'western.'

I completely agree with "We are all human beings who can develop for the positive." and with "The ideas of equality between the law emanated from the East first" - which is why I refuse to accept that this is a 'western idea' which we should not hope to see applied in the east!

I don't have time now to comment point by point on your whole post there, but maybe have a look at Martin Bernal's "Black Athena"?
We need a 'revised ancient model,' acknowledging the great stream of culture that flowed through much of the world in order to create the progressive civilization that now exists, to be part of the paradigm shift everyone talks about, for a more coherent and rational common historical narrative.
One based on objective progress, not a direction.

Permalink Reply by Ohad Bracha on March 17, 2010 at 5:32pm

I 100% agree and I was reffering to the "west" on on the level of dicassion.

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Permalink Reply by Yigal D. Kahana on March 17, 2010 at 5:23pm

Ohad

Freedom of religion aside, for the moment.

Earlier, you said that you understood that the agreement leading to a two-state structure would have to have guarantees of Israel's security.

You probably know a lot more details about this than I do, so please tell me what sort of specific guarantees you think would keep a lasting peace between them? Wouldn't they have to be guaranteed by the Palestinian government and Palestinian society to mean anything?

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Permalink Reply by Basil Keilani on March 18, 2010 at 2:41am

Actually, there are plenty of people who are angry with Israel's politicians. Dallas is not a good gauge of that since it's in the Bible Belt. It's a very Red State, though that's changing. However, many people, including American Jews, are very troubled with Israel's behavior. I am talking about the kind of Jews who view being Jewish as people helping black people in the 1960s achieve equality, not the kind who defend the oppression of another people because some of their own are doing it. There is also a problem of image with Israel seeming to move closer to being closed-minded on religion and that's alienating people. There was no freeze on building in Jerusalem. There was a freeze for the West Bank, but Israel still built there, anyway. Even if there wasn't a freeze in East Jerusalem. It was known that it was on paper a violation of international law, and the Americans tried hard to get the Palestinians to talk without that East Jerusalem freeze. Then, Israel announces huge building activity, which is provocative.

To say that Americans simply don't care if Israel's prime minister undermines confidence when America is trying to encourage talks is not true. Some knowledgeable Americans do care and some don't. There are different sides, but Israel doesn't gain points by having its president and vice president feeling insulted. Also, a large percentage of the democratic party's grass roots support the existence of Israel and its security, but oppose the occupation. I have seen this in the polls.

Some analysts said there was a crisis. I think the crisis is exaggerated. I just think that elites in America are getting frustrated with Israel. Also, some military analysts believe that Israel's actions encourages Arab and Muslim anger against the US because it may be perceived that America abetts Israel's violations. And quietly, they think that translates into the deaths of American soldiers.

They just won't say it openly. In my opinion, also, Israeli soldiers have died in the 1980s in Lebanon unecessarily.
It was a war really for trying to keep the West Bank. The PLO offered a two state solution as far back as 1976. Sadat asked Begin to let go of the West Bank and Gaza. His answer, "I will not be the one to give up Judea and Samaria" and after signing with Egypt he went to war in Lebanon. Those Israeli young men should not have died. I blame the Israeli governents nationalist thinking. There is a better answer. Think of the mothers who cried for the young soldiers who died for nothing.

There is a better answer, and having East Jerusalem as a capital for Palestine won't stop Jews from going anywhere in East Jerusalem. The PLO is not against peace or living with Jews.

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Permalink Reply by Ari Greenblatt on March 18, 2010 at 2:46am

I agree Basil, as an Israeli orthodox jew i agree with you.

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