defend the mepeace.org platform from endless blame game - act locally and think globally

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Permalink Reply by Basil Keilani on January 1, 2010 at 8:52am

Well, I haven't really read every post in this thread, but Mike and Bonnie with the way they are carrying on will only talk at each other. This is done by both Mike and Bonnie. If someone wants to argue that I may be doing that, too, go head. The above post that Neri quoted shows that Neri believes that Michael's quote seems to say that Bonnie is ignorant and for some people that may be viewed as an affront or insulting. Mike could have phrased things differently. However, Bonnie could also phrase things differently. She touched off many of Mike's buttons. If we completely touch each other's buttons and press them, then there is only a Byzantine discussion. That's what I believe leads to no discussion on any forum.

Bonnie states that Israel is treating the Palestinians as the Nazis treated the Jews and Poles and Ukrainians etc... Is Israel loading Palestinians into concentration camps and gassing them and has killed a huge percentage of the Palestinian population? No. Germany did empty parts of Europe of its Jewish population through brute force. Is Israel doing so? Yes, it is doing so and humiliating Palestinians at check points, but the Nazi comparison doesn't fit neatly. Dr. Edward Said, a Leftist Palestinian American, labeled Israel as a colonial settler movement.

The Nazi regime didn't quite have a colonial settler movement. Sure, it did want to empty lands east of Germany up to the UIrals (many don't know about this) to create a German garden of Eden. Some Jewish nationalists see Palestinians in the way of their nationalist dream, and they see their arrival psychologically on a large scale by pushing Palestinians out. After all, what does the settlement building do but disposess Palestinians of the land they live on and push them into smaller areas. Many Jews do not see the immense suffering of Palestinians and cling to Zionism as their protection and are afraid. Their focus is on their nationalism and their conception of being protected. Palestinians didn't see in too many cases the harm Saddam Hussein did to Kurds in Iraq and focused on how he may deliver them from occupation.

Bonnie you objected to Mike using the term terrorism and said should one view Jews who fought against the Nazis to be terrorists. I understand the argument. I would equate a Palestinian fighter with a Jewish Leftist fighter of Poland if this Palestinian is fighting settlers or IDF soldiers, not firing rockets into civilian areas. The Jewish fighters of Poland did not kill any German civilians as far as I can recall.

They were definitely not like most Israeli Jews anymore than they are like Hamas. They would oppose religious Hamas and right wing Jewish nationalism, as well. I would argue that Jews of Israel in some areas do live in terror, but far more Palestinians feel insecure. Many of the Polish Jews who fought the Nazis were universalist Bundists.

Israelis have accused Palestinians of terrorism and much of the world has accused Israel of war crimes. War crimes and terrorism are often rather similar. The point is both Israelis and Palestinians don't have security. Mike should think of the many crippled, dead, maimed, burned Palestinians as well just as I think of how Orel lost part of his brain due to a Hamas attack.


I hope in this new year we will be closer to peace... The lives of Jewish and Palestinian children, who are the same, are at stake. Bonnie and Mike, let's talk.

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Permalink Reply by seansmom on January 2, 2010 at 3:06am

I have to disagree on the Nazi comparison point. The fact that there are no literal gas chambers does not make it different, actually. The Zionists are high tech, no one needs gas chambers anymore. Dropping chemical weapons on a civilian population ( both on Palestinians and Lebanese) serves the same purpose. Missiles, bombs, all the same thing! With the idea of terrorizing the population to leave their homeland and the plunder of their assets. That's pretty Nazi I'm afraid. Zionists, if you read from them, had plans early on to completely take Palestine and to take the whole world if need be. They said it I am only repeating.Never will I deny these things. . I don't bargain with the devil for peace.One should keep in mind that evil came upon the Palestinians they did not even leave home!


Finally, from here I am going to read more than blab and see just what kind of peace plans you all have come up with thus far. Then I am going to compare with the active Palestinian majority's ideas and agenda. Because for me they rule. If you guys are not in step with them you are nowhere.

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Permalink Reply by Basil Keilani on January 2, 2010 at 4:11am

Bonnie,

The problem with the Nazi comparison is that you could say anyone who has ethnic cleansed would fit. Couldn't you say the same about the Australian whites, the whites of North America? The Israelis do not have gas chambers and have not killed 50% of the Palestinian population. Where there are some similarities is the idea of Jewish superiority over Arabs, though one can say the British whites thought that way, and the Nazis didn't have a colonial settler movement. The Israelis do. I think it's easy to label everything Nazi. I would have said that the Serbian militias in the Balkans were closer to
the Nazis than Israel since they had bona fide concentration camps and tens of thousands of Bosnian Slavic Muslims were killed in a short period of time. It was genocide on a massive proportion. Some Jews on the Left and humanitarians would say Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing, it's terrorizing the Palestinians.

Yes, some Palestinians compare Israel to the Nazi state. I understand the comparison. But, then, some compare Israel to South Africa. I would say that Israel is more similar to South Africa. The South Africans didn't seek to eliminate the Jews, they wanted to maintain a segregated society where the whites would be superior. The Nazis wanted to simply eliminate Slavs, Jews, gay people, and gypsies. I think of Israel similar to some of the Serbian nationalists mixed wih what existed in South Africa. However, all regimes that ethnic cleanse people are similar in the sense that they ethnic cleanse. In that sense, the American white Europeans were like the Nazis. People use the term Nazi very easily.
I think the fact that the Jewish people suffered horribly during WWII should have taught them not to engage in ethnic cleansing whatever the rationale, because the German regime did to Jews on a massive scale, though with a desire to eliminate them completely off the face of the Earth, perhaps.


You dismiss my views because you say I don't reflect the majority. My peace plans reflect 242 and 338 which is what the PLO supports. That means two states with East Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital, borders for Palestinians, an exchange of 1948 lands for any settlements taken by Israel and a just settlement of the refugee problem. The latter is a complicated affair. I feel for the refugees and the fact that they live in camps in Lebanon.

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Permalink Reply by Neri Bar-On on January 2, 2010 at 4:40am

Basil,

as far as I know with may Palestinian friends, Bonnie is the one who do not represent the majority. it is typical to extrimists (as Bonnie and Michael) to claim being representative of Majority as the noise they make is so strong there are some who fear them.

But the majority of Palestinians and Israelis are people who want to have good life condition and that was proved in endless polls. in Israel Kadima got the majority of votes and in Palestine recent pools prove that.

so we need to keep our energies. this post was ment to expose the dynamic Bonnie and Michael represent - a view that peace is only when one of the side exposed as evil and defeated. people who expect that the conflict will end as Hollywood movie.

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Permalink Reply by seansmom on January 2, 2010 at 8:12am

"They [Israel] will do everything to make you believe that they want peace - I even believed it once and most of you have believed it - I know that. They will do everything to make sure that people in the West believe that they want peace - they will go to meetings, they will sign documents - they will do all that and then they will make damn sure that there is no chance of any of this happening..." Haim Bresheeth, Jews against Zionism.
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2009
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that Israel's sovereignty over Jerusalem was not a matter up for discussion. The prime minister's comments came after the U.S. State Department told Israeli envoy Michael Oren that Israel must halt a construction project in East Jerusalem.
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2009
Kadima Knesset member Otniel Schneller Slamming US Dept of State and American far left liberal so called ‘Pro-Israel’ groups like J-Street: ‘It is expected that the Sec of State Mrs. Clinton be in contact with the Government of Israel and respect the will of the vast majority of Jews globally, everywhere, that Jerusalem is the Capital of the State of Israel – And will not rely on the opinions through recent meetings of a small sector of radical American Jewish groups with close & intimate ties to the Obama administration..’

Yoel Hasson, Kadima’s Chair: The American request is totally illegitimate. Jerusalem is the Capital of Israel, not a settlement - it is important that the American administration come to terms with these realities..



Ok Neri and Basil, I am a fringe minority extremist, have it your way. I hope you are right and I am wrong. I simply don't know what could make them give up what is already in their hands which is East Jerusalem, the deal breaker. I will come back now and then and we can review the progress towards peace. I'll remember how it all stands today and we will compare on a new day and we will keep on doing that. You will keep informing me on the progress. 242 and 338 are our magic numbers.

Permalink Reply by Neri Bar-On on January 2, 2010 at 9:38am

Bonnie

At the moment when the Hamsa and Fatah do not have one political system there is no point of negotiation of Jerusalem,

when we will have one Palestinian political system we can then work together for finding a solution (I think that the best is to make Jerusalem trans-national entity devoted for religious centers of Islam, Christianity and Judaism)

the deal breakers are the settlements and the Palestinian political crises

Permalink Reply by seansmom on January 2, 2010 at 7:15am

No Basil, I am not dismissing your views. I am a disbeliever in Israel for peace based on their own performance.

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Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on January 2, 2010 at 10:53am

Dear Seansmom,

You wrote "I am a disbeliever in Israel for peace based on their own performance."

Is that not a double-edged sword?

Based upon the long-ongoing hostility from non-Jewish Palestinians and their supporters against some Jewish People and the (possible) existence of Israel and based on their own performance, would you believe that most Jewish People are also disbelievers in the real desire of the Palestinian and Arab People for peaceful coexistence with Israel?

So where does that leave prospects for peace?

Permalink Reply by seansmom on January 2, 2010 at 1:42pm

Palestinians inside Israel are pushing for one state. The Palestinian community leaders are all agreed. Palestinians all know Israel is not serious for peace. That's a duh. There's a peace plan I can agree with!

Permalink Reply by Michael Weis on January 2, 2010 at 7:42pm

Seansmom, do you have any evidence to back your statement up? Any poll on the Israeli Arab support for one-state?

Permalink Reply by Basil Keilani on December 31, 2009 at 7:44pm

Yes, Michael, but the land has been settled by non-Jews (Palestine) since the beginning before Jews existed and the ancient Hebrews were not Jews. I don't think they are the same people. The Palestinians trace to the Jews, at any rate. It's easy to claim a 3000 year old interrupted history and that only people who call themselves Jews today connect to the Hebrews and Israelites more than others. Both have a connection.

Also, Arabs have been there for at least 2000 years. At least, Arabian tribes. The Nabataens were there way before 2000 years ago. Even David's sister married an Ishmaelite.

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Permalink Reply by MICHAEL STOLZ on January 1, 2010 at 12:25am

Basil. Judah is the rough translation for Jew. Judea and Samaria are the terms used for the West Bank, a very recent name. The Nabateans lived in what is currently Jordan.

I can trace my lineage back to the Inquisition and some even further back. To say that we are not the same people is ludicrous. No Arabs are mentioned in the New Testament or by Josephus. Acco4ding to many travellers there were very few Arabs even in the late 1700's and only pockets of Jewish settlements bu they were in the majority. Mark twain for one comes to mind.

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