Help!! A Question for Israeli Jews

I've just had a heated conversation with my cousin in Israeli who in brief told me that I don't understand the situation because I don't live there and in any case it's not my business. It's not even that she is in favour of the occupation, she isn't but is very resigned to its inevitability and durabilty. Somehow engaging with the "other side" really gets up people's noses.

It's hard for me to visit Israel and restrict myself to "safe" conversations about the weather or whatever. I have no illusions about being able to influence anything and never expect to be able to do anything except try to help people on a one to one basis.

I imagine that the majority of Israelis view diaspora jews in this way. What do you think about the role of jews in the diaspora? How can one deal with this hostility? Just avoid talking about "difficult" matters?

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Permalink Reply by Stewart Mills on January 24, 2010 at 11:14pm

Rivka,

I have had a similar experience and responded to it here:

http://globalpeacebuildingapathy.blogspot.com/

Your cousins argument is a typical response of someone who is passionate about their position but then is challenged by an alternate view but does not have the intellectual capacity to cause another (especially a trusted other such as yourself) to change such a position. So the knee jerk response is to say "back-off...you've crossed a line".

Ask your cousin what she thinks is happening in Darfur? If she was objective and reasoned and uses the same logic as she is using to you she too would have to mind her own business. Ask her about Tibet, East Timor, the Congo, Rwanda, South Africa, Haiti. Or what about indigenous communities in Australia, New Zealand, the United States and Canada Or closer to home why not ask her about Jordan, Saudi Arabia or Iran. Has she lived in these places? And yet it goes without saying that she would have an opinion of these places despite not living there. Her opinion might be so strong that it might cause her to talk to others about what she has read about or seen on TV and have a conversation with others who may or may not agree with her.

This is life. Difference of opinion is the basis of democracy, it is the basis of reasoned human beings.

The Torah teaches us that "We are our brother's/sister's keeper".

Martin Niemoller reminds us that "In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up"

Bishop Desmond Tutu said "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality."

Edmund Burke said "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men [good people] do nothing."

Rivka, the key is to ensure that you validate that the real and perceived fears your cousin has but to keep presenting to her alternative ways of viewing the conflict.

Shalom, Salam, Peace,

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Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on January 24, 2010 at 11:31pm

Dear Stewart

You are NOT a Jew and so your experience is not as similar as you you might like to think.

You are NOT an Arab and so your experience is not as similar as you you might like to think.

What makes you think that the help you so fervently provide is really helpful to anyone other than yourself?

Validating and creating fears is what so many presumptive (self-anointed) stakeholders do lot of simply enflames the conflict. There is a significant difference between the meaning of validating a fear and merely acknowledging the existence of a fear.

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Permalink Reply by Basil Keilani on January 25, 2010 at 7:01am

Stewart,

People aren't going to think of it on a deep philosophical level as you're portraying it whether it entails quoting parts of the TORAH they may not even remember or actions in other places in the world. At least, that's my thinking. A Palestinian who has Jewish or Israeli friends might run into hostility if he discusses peace activities with Israelis. Israelis and Palestinians have certain fears that are similar. Israelis sometimes feel Palestinians want throw them into the sea, and Palestinians feel Israelis want throw them across the River Jordan. Of course, since Israel has the power it's more capable of doing lots of damage. It's the guy with the huge guns.

I am not an Israeli, but I talk to them all the time. I can imagine that many feel they are under the microscope from the world. It also depends on what kind of Israeli. Some of them will have a racist response about Arabs, and some will say there is nothing that can be done and that's the way it is, and he doesn't want to have a headache and discuss the subject and will react negatively to such a discussion.

Of course, I am not an Israeli Jew, but I can also see how Palestinians can also have negative reactions from Palestinians from the outside if they think a diaspora Palestinian is lecturing them. I think Israeli Jews
say it is not the diaspora Jews when they get defensive, but it's also a way to shut off debate with a diaspora Jew they feel they don't agree with. However, I think that doesn't work since Israel wants Jewish support from abroad. Israel won't simply get a bunch of yes men and women who are Jews outside. People will ask questions just as Israelis ask questions. Of course, Israelis feel they actually have to serve in the army and deal with Palestinians. European and American Jews don't deal with Palestinians.

I personally don't agree with that. We live in one world, and what happens in Israel, as Gideon Levy would say, affects the whole world. Even if I were not Palestinian or whatever, I would want to say something about what's going down there for the sake of peace in the world.

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Permalink Reply by Ohad Bracha on January 25, 2010 at 7:30am

Basil now be honest there is not one country in the world that has more open debate about such crucial situations as Israel.

Diaspora Jews where always part of it since for ever . they are absolutely not "yes men's" as you call them.

I was referring to this specific situation. one cousin lives in Europe and has nothing to lose one lives here.
it is just not so fair to "balme" the cousin"
Rivkah if she wants to is welcome to come to Israel with big sign and stand in front of the Knesset, she can stand in Rome with signs against the occupation and she can come the the palestinian territories. diaspora Jews are doing all that all the time .

I wish I would see more diaspora palestinian doing the same it would help a lot if there was some fair criticism in side the arab world as well

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Permalink Reply by Stewart Mills on January 25, 2010 at 10:41pm

Thanks Basil for your response.

I agree with what you are saying (as per always) and appreciate your deep insights and experience.

1. Establishing a principle when presenting a position

Just to clarify, my reference to the Torah was not to describe how people on the ground think. I used the reference to the Torah to identify a common principle on which my argument was based. I realize the majority of Jewish-Israelis are agnostics with a significant atheist composition. My decision to quite from the Torah (as well as refer to Niemoller, Tutu and Burke) was to identify the basic principle of my argument which was – humans have a duty to help other humans in pain. This duty is demonstrated (1) From an ideological view point (be that some moral or religious based teaching); (2) international law’s responsibilities owed to the stranger and (3) from a pragmatic view as suggested by Niemoller that if I don’t help you when you are in trouble then there will be noone to help me if I find myself in trouble.

Hi Ohad I agree:

2. Joint criticism is needed to show consistency to a principle and establish trust

I agree with Ohad that Diaspora Palestinians can do more to help criticize authoritarian regimes in North Africa, the Middle East and Central Asia. Such criticism will show (1) consistency in principle and integrity – i.e we are all held by the same rules and (2) help build the basis for trust building – that we are all looking out for each other’s interests. I was at the World Parliament of Religions recently in Melbourne and I heard Anwar Ibrahim (who himself has been wrongly jailed by the Malaysian Government) say the same thing. He called on Muslims to not limit their criticism to Israel but as Ohad said to other parts of the world where people were suffering.

Paul I agree:

3. Unsolicited advice can be counter-productive in bringing about a change (but is not necessarily off-limits)

I agree that unsolicited advice can simply create a defence reaction and result in people putting walls up; resulting in an end to the rational side of the conversation. In general unsolicited advice can be counter-productive. However, as Paul suggested there may be other techniques to try.

Rivka -

Having said that there are times and places to speak your mind clearly without fear or favour. If you have trust with your cousin she will hopefully accept that this is you and she will love you regardless but disagree with your position.

If you are religious you could pray about it.
If you are not keep doing what you are doing, ask around, keep reading, keep showing your cousin that you care for her situation but that you have some areas of concern ; some unanswered questions that you would like to talk about.

4. Humility, honesty and sincerity

Rivka your humility, honesty and sincerity will certainly hold you in good sted wherever you will go. It will cause you pain at times because it does leave you vulnerable, but hopefully over time your cousin will see the genuiness and insightfulness of your questions and thinking. All the best with it.

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Permalink Reply by Rivka on January 25, 2010 at 12:15am

BOY! This is like a reading test - what assumptions you are both making and how little attention you paid to what I wrote.

Dear Stewart
Thanks for your reply. I actually was looking from input from Israeli jews. I think it's far too easy for your to pass judgements on a situation with which you are not intimately involved . You are making all sorts of assumptions that are completely untrue. I wrote that my cousin is against the occupation- and by the way, she is extremely bright. Having spent 2 years doing interesting things in Israel and Palestine and studying about conflicts cannot equip you for the intimate experience I was talking about - you have to accept that this is outside your frame of reference - you are not jewish or share the jewish experience.

Dear Ohad
"you cousin is right! even if you are right about the issues. . . if you preach him he would not listen to you and he has every right to get upset. and most likely you do not understand him or any Israeli. that is the way it is. try to listen and talk about solution rather then blame and people will take you more seriously"
Why are you assuming that I preach and do not listen? I have had years and years and years of listening to Israelis and still listen. Having most of my family in Israel, an Israeli father, having lived there as a small child and having lived in a very zionist family does give me a certain stake in the country - or at least more of an interest than let's say France or Spain. This "stake" is recognized by Israelis when I say nice things. What I wrote was that engaging with the other side caused annoyance.

Assuming I don't preach, what would be your advice?

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Permalink Reply by Ohad Bracha on January 25, 2010 at 12:37am

Hi Rivka

I don't know your cousin opinions... he might be wrong about many issues but the situation is whats counts.

you are standing from your high place as a person with a European citizenship as a posed to your cousin which is guilty only BC he was born in Israel.

all you can do is give your advice to your cousin but he has a right to be offended since even if are right about the issues the situation is hypocritical

he is the one that will have to live with and situation that the future might bring, while you will live in italy .

that is all there is to it.

again I am sure that about the issue you and I share most of the points but that has nothing to do with it.

its important that we will be fare and not hypocritical .

the general feeling in Israel and to be honest even in this website is that there is not much hope.

yes the right thing is always talking and diplomacy but at what coast ? these are some of the answers that you owe to you cousin

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Permalink Reply by Rivka on January 25, 2010 at 12:57am

Hi Ohad
I think your phrases below give me a key to problem:

you are standing from your high place as a person with a European citizenship as a posed to your cousin which is guilty only BC he was born in Israel.

all you can do is give your advice to your cousin but he has a right to be offended since even if are right about the issues the situation is hypocritical - What advice do I give her?

FULL of emotionally loaded assumptions, some of which are completely baseless- not very conduicive to meaningful communication. That is probably what was going on between me and my cousin.

I think you're telling me that as a high standing European residing jew, I'd better limit the conversation to the weather or football - is that your advice?
Tell me how it could be acceptable for me , if at all, to make reference to the West Bank or my friends there while in Israel?

What exactly do you assume I did wrong? What answers do I owe my cousin?
And... why do you sound angry? Are you?

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Permalink Reply by Ohad Bracha on January 25, 2010 at 1:05am

Rivka I absolutely did not say that.

what I said is that you can tell her your opinion and she has the right to get upset. that's all.

at the end it is she that will have to pay the price not you.

I encourage any one to say what they think

maybe I could help you more with my opinion if you will tell me what you said ... if you want to go in to details ?