I read through the discussion groups and have noticed the horrible hate and anti-semetic rants that go on here. Dehumanizing Israel, Jews, settlers, comparisons to the Nazis, how can any of this contribute to peace?
Peace can not equal hate and instead of trying to betterthe situation for all peoples in the region, talking about solutions there is mostly spewing hate. Where are all the peace activits, the idea that all people are created equal and should be treated as such. Condeming things like terrorist and racist on BOTH sides.....
Strange Israel withe all its faults and there are many is still the only country in the mideast that gives all its citizens freedom of expression, press, religion - gives them all a vote in free and open elections... There is NO country in the Arab world that even comes close. Yet by reading this site you would think we are talking about Saudi Arabia, Sudan, China, Egypt or Iran.....
Wake up.... See how the whole arab world is demanding the same rights given to ALL Israeli citizens... Yes, we must find a way for peace between Palestinians and Israelis but it will never be found this way...
I look forward tocomments here that are constructive and dont contribute to further anomacity...
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I am sorry, but what you are saying is not accurate. You say Israel gives all its citizens the same exact rights. It's so much better for Arab-Israelis. It's a myth like the world being flat. If you are Jordanian and have the money, you can easily get land and a permit to build on it. If you are an Arab-Israeli, you will be lucky to get your permit. I know many Israelis.I saw the news where Israel destroyed a whole bedouin village! They were citizens. Where does Jordan destroy some whole village of Jordan citizens. You are just following your Zionist myths. And what about the Palestinians whose homes are destroyed in the West Bank and cleansed from the land. Is that civilized? As far as anti-Semitism, I will say as a Semite who has the blood of Israel, Canaan, Arabia, and Aram that your state practices horrible anti-Semitism against the Palestinians. Destroying homes of other people is not giving them flowers no matter how you want us to believe that is civilized. I am sure when the British took the lands of the Irish, they also thought they were being civilized Britannia and the Irish were uncivilized barbarians. Nice try. If you want to see racism, look at your government and how it humiliates our people. My father needs a visa to Nablus, though he was born there. Why? Because in 1967, he was outside and married. That's your government. It's anti-Semitic.
Like I said I do not think Israel is perfect but, I challange you to name an Arab country that allows its minorities the same rights as Israel does. In any and every country if you build a home illeglally than it will be torn down as Israel has done to many Jewish homes build both within the country and settlers, include whole settlements. In fact, they kicked 10,000 out of their homes, Jews... Some might even call taht ethnic clensing, I am guessing that is OK in you book because you deem them illegle - try to follow your own logic.
As for the term "anti-semite" it is an accepted term today to refer to anti-jew, if you would prefer anti-jew thanI will say anti Jew. This is no diffrence to Arabs calling themselves Palestnians, Jews were just as Palestinian as Palestinians are, you can look at my grandfathers passport. But today we call the Arabs in the west bank and gaza Palestinians. If this also makes you feel uncomfortable I will call them the Arabs of former Palestine.
Funny you mention Jordan as your example - they have been great to tgheir monirty Palesinian population, sorry the Arabs of the former Palestine, they only killed a few hundred thousand in a matter of a few weeks on one day in September...
The land that is currently Israel was nottaken, it was given by the UN resolution 181 and 242... The lands lost in these villages was the result of war that the Arabs started (over and over and keep lossing).
As for your father, i am very sorry and the is the concerquence of war... I know many, many Jews who were born in places like Iran, Syria, Yemen etc.... who will never be able to visit the countries they were born in after they were thrown out by decree - not even by war... Lets just keep it all in perspective..
I look forward to your reply - dont forget to start with the name of the country yu believe even teh average citizen is given more rights then any Israeli citizen...
It very strange how Israelis love to tell us how terrible Arab countries are, and then reassure us that Israel is okay, because it is just the tiniest bit better than the worst Arab country they can think of.
Dan, nothing you say ever makes sense, because no matter how nice you tell us Israel is, we can all see that Israel has massive settlements on the land that is proposed as the area for a Palestinian State.
Furthermore, you fail to admit that the settlers are protected by Israeli Defence Forces, and you also never disclose that those settlers are armed with very powerful weapons that are supplied free by the IDF. What’s more, the settlers have access to roads and infrastructure that is not available to their Arab neighbours, who were there long before the settlers arrived.
Everyone knows this, so why pretend it is not so?
I didn't ever say that Israel is the worst country in terms of behavior. If you want to argue that China is worse or the Sudan is worse or Saudi Arabia is worse, I am not going to disagree. However, it would be like saying France in 1941 was not so bad though it was killing so many Africans as part of its because France was leading to the deaths of Africans and the Germans were connected to the deaths of millions of Jews, Ukrainian and Polish Slavs, gays.
Does Saudi Arabia's human rights violations make demolishing homes of Palestinians fine? It would be like saying that if Russia was being horrible to Jews a long time ago, but France had much less anti-Jewish activities, then what France was doing was okay? That's the logic you are giving me. You are trying to ignore the abuses of Israel. What if it were the abuses of Jews would you say the same thing? No, you would not. However, you want to defend the Jewish people and turn a blind eye to abuses just as Arabs in Egypt turn a blind eye to the prejudice against Christians there. Saudi Arabia abuses human rights, but has it killed thousands of people who inhabit their country as Israel has done no matter how you justify it? No.
If you would ask me, I would say Serbia has done worse than Israel. If you compare what Russia has done in Chechnya and Israel to Palestinians, maybe Russia has killed far more Chechnyans, but it doesn't make settlements and making parts of the West Bank Palestinian free and to replace them with other people.
Imagine if someone said about Russians mistreating Jews during the Soviet Union and the Soviet Union saying, but we are not even close to as bad as Yemen or Syria. What would you think? I am sure I can guess. What makes Palestinians so inferior to the point where demolishing their homes, pushing them out is okay? I feel we are treated as inferior.
I still don't think Arab-Israelis who have difficulties getting permits to build are necessarily better off than middle class Jordanians who can buy land if they have the cash or get a permit to build. Even if it were the case, and it is not, would it make Israel's abuses okay? No. Anyway, where does Jordan demolish villages and homes in 2011? Israel did that least year in the Negev. Have you any thought or care for them? It shouldn't matter where a person is from or their religion. They deserve dignity. And Israel does treat Arab-Israelis better than Egyptians possibly, but an Egyptian can still build anywhere if he has the money. Comparing Jordan from 1970 in a civil war to Israel in 2010 just doesn't make sense. It would be like comparing the US in 1950 with black people and South Africa in 1993. It's not the way to make a point.
It is true and I have no reason to hide,settlers are protected by Israeli Defence Forces, and some are armed with weapons that are supplied by the civil authority not the army and settlers have access to roads and infrastructure that is not available to their Arab neighbors, who were there long before the settlers arrived. - I said it all not let me finish your rant. Israel like all other countries protect its citizens and like all other Israeli citizen, Jew and Arab one can apply for a weapons permit. Israel does not allow arabs access to many road because they have used them in the past to kill Israeli civilians, most of these roads are new road built by Israel. I will also admit to checkpoints that Arabs have to go through and cannot move freely in the west bank, this is because it turns out that there are Arabs that like to blow themselves up and kill men women and childern in the name of Allah.
Now Susan please admit that there are many arabs who support the murder of civilians whether is be in a mall or a pre-school... Please admit that if settlers were not armed of the army were not there to protect them they would be massacred. Admit that if the Arabs shared the Israeli built road with the Jews thee would be many who would use them to murder in the name of Allah. Now admit that if the humiliation checkpoints were not there, if the seperation barrier were not there, Israel would be burying many more civillians...Everyone knows this, so why pretend it is not so?
SAMIRA. You mean like the peace that prevailed between 1948 and 1967?
How many documented rapes can you tell us about? Who does the raping? Where did they occur? If it was not serious , it would be plain laughable. I would assume that you have first hand knowledge of what you say?
MORE LIES to demonize Jews and Israel.
Rapes, unfortunately of kids or adolescents in the military jails or at the famous "parties" of the Border Police. One young men died of this a few years ago. Everything else is shut down as tightly as possible - and the kids don't want to return to face their torturers who anyway have ALL the power.
It would be like a Jew in German of the 1930s complaining against a German at a German Court.
The soldiers/border policemen are Israeli. The victim is Palestinian. The (Military) Court is Israeli. No lawyers, no visits of parents, no protection whatsoever... And you wonder that you don't hear about it?
Only recently I read about that in Haaretz, 972.mag or Occupation Magazine - I don't exactly remember, but it was a big story, because these kids now get a voice for the first time..
SAMIRA. Are you aware that a large percentage of the Border Police is Druze. You know about the Druze, don't you?
I would thank you to stop with the Nazi analogy as it is very offensive and has no bearing to the current situation whatsoever.
Obviously you have no clue as to what you are saying and your sources, that you don't remember or are misquoting are a red herring that just laid a chicken egg.
And to imagine that you call yourself a peacemaker. Shocking and revealing.
It is instructive that you are relying on urban myths and second or third hand information.
HAVE YOU EVEN BEEN TO THE MIDDLE EAST?
Tony, your Suggestion that the Nazi analogy is very offensive is a manipulative attempt to control the direction of the discussion based on the idea that the Nazis are in some way especially evil, as opposed to other groups that routinely commit massacres.
Likewise, your ‘fact’ that the Border Police are Druze implies that it is not Israel’s responsibility if they rape the women, due to the implied nature of the Druze.
You then completely abandon any attempt to be courteous, and insult Samira by saying she has no clue as to what she is saying.
This is full blown propaganda. The issues were never addressed, nor was the truth examined.
And to imagine that you call yourself a peacemaker. Shocking and revealing.
SUSSAN: Frankly, I am getting sick and tired of Jews and Israelis being compared to Nazis or the use of Nazi analogies to link with Jews and Israel. It is the Mufti that collaborated with the Nazis and they used Nazi sentiments in the news media both before the aggression of 1948 as well as that usage just prior to 1967. So please spare me the nonsense that it is a valid argument. ISRAEL has NEVER committed atrocities towards the Arabs, but the Arabs have committed atrocities against the Jews even before the State of Israel.
I just pointed out facts and have not implied anything towards the Druze, as I have the most respect for them as a people and the job that they are doing. It is Samira that made an allegation against the Border Police and implied that it was committed by Jews. I maintain that no rapes have been committed by anyone associated with the IDF or individual Jews and that she has nothing but a vivid imagination and I called her on that. If someone presents LIES as facts than there is no reply but rather a curt reply is warranted. You cannot smear someone and than get away with it while claiming that it is a valid argument.
If you do not see the sheer nonsense of what Samira is trying to pass of as the truth than perhaps you yourself does not know what you are talking about.
You just exposed that this may not,in fact, be a peace site but a vehicle to bash Israel and the Facts and the Truth be damned. It is shocking and revealing that you or Samira call yourselves peacemakers.
I am so offended that nazi-like propaganda takes center stage on any forum but especially on one that wants to promote peace.
What Samira has stated is a Blood Libel and yet you are defending her. Truly Shocking.
Tony, you contradicted yourself. You stated that you are offended that Nazi like propaganda has occurred on this site and then deride people who speak of how the German government during WWII had various ethnic groups at its mercy. I think the point Samira was making that crimes committed against Arabs are often ignored by Israel. That would be more like the US in the 1950s with "To Kill a Mockingbird". The justice system is run by Israel, and why would an Israel that occupies Palestinians, demolishes their home care that much if Israeli soldiers abuse Palestinians? A 65 year old man was murdered and a soldier essentially got fired. Where was the justice in that? I think of the potential for justice for Palestinians is as good as a black man in Alabama in 1940 abused by the local white sheriff. And someone trying to say otherwise back then would say but the white sheriff is a pure, good white Christian with purity of arms, his 45 magnum wouldn't be used that way. It's just those savage colored folk making up things, and you can't believe the colored folk.
As far as the Israeli Druze, they joined the stronger party, the Israelis. Had the Druze thought the Arabs would be stronger, they would have joined their fellow Arabs against the Jewish settlers of the 1948 lands. They saw the writing on the wall. In order to not have their loyalty questioned, they act more extreme in many cases than Israelis. One Druze officer not long ago shot a Palestinian girl carrying a book bag. She was not armed. He shot her so many times and confirmed the kill. A court declared him innocent. At any rate, there are divisions even amongst Israeli Druze. Some do not like how the Palestinians are faring under Israeli control. A prominent Arab-Israeli Druze lawyer tries to defend Palestinians in court.
I don't know about stories regarding rape, but I know the above story was in the Israeli newspapers. Israeli human rights groups do refer to human rights abuses.
Do you really want peace between Israelis and Palestinians? If so, what does that mean? You haven't indicated you recognize the two state solution, a shared Jerusalem, disbanding any of the settlements. Israel and Egypt arrived at peace by having Israel withdraw from the Sinai. I don't think expanding and taking more land in the West Bank promotes peace. What exactly do you propose that would promote peace? No side is innocent, of course. I haven't seen you present any positive ideas over here.
As far as Samira telling lies, it is said that Abu Ghraib was inspired by Israeli tactics. And people do claim that the Shin Bet has videos of Palestinian women who are raped and use it as leverage. I don't know if it is true, but it wouldn't surprise me. Also, Mustafa Dirani, a Lebanese man claimed he was raped. Are they all lying Arabs, and the Israelis denying it are innocent? I don't know, but it seems odd that many would claim to have been raped and to lie about it considering the shame associated with being raped in Arab society.
Channel 1 television on Wednesday reported than Israel Defense Forces doctor who examined kidnapped Lebanese guerrilla leader Mustafa Dirani found physical evidence to back his charge that he was raped.
The channel quoted from a document where the doctor, identified as Lieutenant Colonel Chen Kugel, wrote, "on the basis of my examination of Mr. Dirani... the results can substantiate the essence of the complaint" that he was raped.
Dirani was abducted from Lebanon in 1994 by an elite Israeli force to serve as a bargaining chip for information on the fate of the missing Israel Air Force navigator Ron Arad, whose jet was downed over Lebanon skies in 1986.