I read through the discussion groups and have noticed the horrible hate and anti-semetic rants that go on here. Dehumanizing Israel, Jews, settlers, comparisons to the Nazis, how can any of this contribute to peace?
Peace can not equal hate and instead of trying to betterthe situation for all peoples in the region, talking about solutions there is mostly spewing hate. Where are all the peace activits, the idea that all people are created equal and should be treated as such. Condeming things like terrorist and racist on BOTH sides.....
Strange Israel withe all its faults and there are many is still the only country in the mideast that gives all its citizens freedom of expression, press, religion - gives them all a vote in free and open elections... There is NO country in the Arab world that even comes close. Yet by reading this site you would think we are talking about Saudi Arabia, Sudan, China, Egypt or Iran.....
Wake up.... See how the whole arab world is demanding the same rights given to ALL Israeli citizens... Yes, we must find a way for peace between Palestinians and Israelis but it will never be found this way...
I look forward tocomments here that are constructive and dont contribute to further anomacity...
Replies are closed for this discussion.
For me, as a Semite with the blood of the Arameans, Canaanites, Israelites, Arabs, I am a Semite, so I relate to being Semitic. And not all Jews are Semites. You can convert to Judaism. You cannot become a Semite. I think the old term is also used in modern times to shut down opponents as if one state is above approach because of the tribe or nation that inhabits therein.
Back to the idea of Arab Israelis, you said if you do not have a permit your home will be destroyed. The point is it's hard to get a permit in many cases if you are an Arab-Israeli and you will have your home possibly destroyed. This does not happen in Jordan. A Jordanian won't be denied a permit because he is Christian. You are trying to compare Black September in 1970 when the PLO was killed by members of the Jordanian army in 1970 to in 2010 when Israel destroyed a whole bedouin village? You claimed Jordan killed hundreds of thousands of people. Why such a dishonest statement? The maximum number was 20,000 and some said 3,400. We don't know how many of them were soldiers. I think Jordan went too far at that time. It was a civil war. What civil war exists in Israel leading them in 2010 to destroy a whole bedouin village. I checked the papers. There is no civil war in 2010 between Arabs and Israelis in Israel. Your point taken that the war in Jordan led to too many excesses and the killings of civilians is definitely something I can accept. However, getting enough information on what happened is difficult to come by. You said it happened one one day instead of 11. Egypt called it genocide at the time.
The land that was to be Israel had an Arab majority so the General Assembly did not state that the Arabs had to be moved out. What would the Jews of Israel had to do? Ethnic cleanse the Arabs to have their state, and that's what happened. How was there going to be a state if Jews were the minority.The General Assembly resolution did not give Israel anything. It only made a recommendation. It was not a Security Council resolution. And many of the states that voted yes regretted it.
Again, Jordanians are given more rights than Arab-Israelis. If you are comparing Jews to Jordanians, then Jews have more rights than Jordanians. However, that's changing. When you compare Arab-Israelis to Jordanians, it is not the case. Arab-Israelis can't live in certain places, have a hard time to get a permit. Are you saying all those Arab-Israelis who I know are crazy and don't know what they deal with all the time? It doesn't make sense. I will be happy when it becomes easy for Arab-Israelis to live anywhere they want in Israel, to easily get permits even if they are not Jews. I would love to agree with you about Arab-Israelis. I would love to see you fight against discrimination against Arab-Israelis. I am against prejudice against Jews and I have had for many years Jewish friends, and I didn't care if someone liked it or not. Tough luck for them. However, do I want Arab-Israelis to suffer discrimination? No. Do you?
As far as Jews from other areas of the Middle East who suffered is that the fault of Palestinians? No. It is not. That is Israel's actions. I don't support any wrong things that happened to Jews from anywhere whether in Europe or the Middle East. You are correct that Jews being expelled
and Arabs being expelled has been the consequence of the Arab-Israeli wars. I agree with you there, and I think it's wrong in both cases.
You are making an illogical circuitous argument. The sequence of events must be adhered to and not just taking a starting point which seems to be a moving target. The League of Nations gave Britain a Mandate for Palestine to create a National home for JEWS and than went on to break its terms. Lets fast forward to 1947 when the UNGA voted for partition. Jews agreed ,the Arabs did not making that vote null and void and reverting back to the Mandate as the UN assumed all the obligations of the League of Nations.
If not for the Arab invasion, there would have been a Arab State in Palestine and as it was it was occupied by Jordan 1948-1967 illegally, I may add by Egypt and Jordan without the Palestinians claiming to be occupied. There were no Palestinians in 1967 and 242 talks about Egypt, Jordan,Syria and Israel (the High Contracting parties)
There was terror between 1949 and 1967 emanating from Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon with the idea of Liberating Palestine (namely Israel in its pre 1967 borders) Jordan launched a war in 1967 and lost its occupied territories and subsequently made peace with Israel agreeing to no claims against Israel. Israel is therefore in possession of disputed lands as you cannot occupy lands that were not sovereign by anyone.
The 1967 cease fire lines are not borders but rather demarcation lines at the insistence of Jordan and the Arab League. The populations of Judea and Samaria are in fact Jordanian citizens and must conform to Israeli law there.
Until 2000 the Arabs of Judea and Samaria had almost full employment and there were no checkpoints but in 2000 the Palestinians decided to start a shooting war called Intifada.
There will not be peace with terror, delligitemizing of Israel, failure to conclude an end of conflict clause and recognition of Israel as a Jewish State. Agree to that and start negotiating. Once you have a state than you will not have to worry about checkpoints and what you call expulsions or demolitions. Until than Israel has a right under International Law to do what it sees fit.
I thought you would apprecite this:
A report published by the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Network states the following:
According to what we have learned in our interviews, although Palestinian refugees have been given Jordanian nationality, they are strongly discriminated against because of their Palestinian origins. In practice, roughly 90% of all government posts, in particular in the army, police, magistracy and the universities are reserved for people of Jordanian origin.
The Jordanians of Palestinian origin appear to be convinced that the authorities look upon them as temporary citizens who shouldn't really be given the right to settle because it is envisaged that they will one day return to Palestine. In his book entitled 'Jordanians, Palestinians and the Hashemite Kingdom', Mr. Adnan Abu-Odeh, a writer and former head of the Jordanian government, explains that although the laws do not advocate any form of discrimination as such, a certain de facto discrimination exists vis-à-vis Palestinians. Some people claim, for example, that the electoral system prevents Jordanians of Palestinian origin from being properly represented in parliament. According to the statements, it would appear that in those areas where Jordanians of Palestinian origin are in the majority, the number of seats up for election is generally less than the number of seats in areas where the majority of people are Jordanian in origin.
"Jordanians are given more rights than Arab-Israelis." Do you really believe this? - I guess you have not been following the news lately
I mean they have an Un-elected monarchy - If you speak against him yu can go to prison....
One of the first things I stated is that Israel is not perfect...
"I would love to see you fight against discrimination against Arab-Israelis." - the thing is Arab Israelis dont need my help they should all go out and vote and join the governent then they can make real change - they choose not to utilize the democracy they were given... why is it that 20% of the population in Israel is Arab but only 8% in the Kinneset - they have the tools.
Please remember that after everything the settlers are people too - many who are living simple lives in an area that the governemnt sent them. Many living on private Jewish land purchased.... they too deserve right sand should no be discriminated because they are Jewish...
Regarding the expulsion of populations - should the Jews not be equally compensated for them being expelled? The difference is they were not expelled as a consequence of war ...there was no war between the Arab countries and their Jewish populations....
There is difference between Israel bashing and holding a government to account for their actions. It is a foundation of the democratic system to critically analyse what a state says it stands for and what in fact happens on the ground.
I will be the first to say the governments in Saudi Arabia, Sudan, China, Egypt or Iran continue to deny people basic human rights. The thing is that is no justification for denying Israel to be accountable for her actions in war and in continuing to occupy or lay siege to Palestinian people.
As a teacher I am very familiar with students who get caught for doing something wrong try to excuse themselves of responsibility by saying look what someone else is doing. My response to the student is for them first to focus on their behaviour admit responsibility, so that I can then move on to the other offending students. If that one student continues to argue to avoid responsibility all this means is I have little time or energy to move on to the next offending students. The point is if you get caught, admit it, then we can move on and try and solve other problems. If Israel, despite all the elements of democracy cannot respond to the situation of Palestinians with compassion and justice, then why should we expect anything more of the Egyptians, Saudis or whoever?
Dan, I wish you peace. I wish your family peace. And I am sure whether in this generation or the next the people of Israel and Palestine will live together side-by-side as neighbours and friends. There is so much that the people of Israel and Palestine share in their stories.
If you are in Israel I hope you get a chance to catch up with the other mepeace people on the ground so you can share with others their personal stories
Shalom Salam Peace
Let me clarify myself - I am not saying Israel is perfect, I am noyt saying they are not wrong because Arab dictators are horrible... I just ask why you are not fighting for Arabs who really have it bad.... Even Palestinians in teh PA - Is they had half the rights of Israeli Arabs they would be thrilled.... It does not seem that anyone cares.
Its like constantly complaining that your soup is served cold while people are dying on teh street from starvation... Yes, the soup should be better but look out the window, there is your real problem. I am am happy to see that finally there are people in the Arab streets who are doing this....
Dan, I applaud your honesty about your own government. In terms of why this issue of injustice and not another. The question in response I would ask is do you agree that sanctions placed on the white South African government in the 80's was a necessary means to bring about regime change and an end to Apartheid? If you say no, then it will be interesting to hear your response why and what would have been a more appropriate response. If you say yes, then it is important to consider that the key arguments against sanctions on South Africa were 1. It is discriminatory to choose sanctions against South Africa when there are greater injustices in the world (eg at the time the argument was about why not place more sanctions on the Soviets or their allies). 2. Sanctions will hurt black South Africans 3. South Africa is a friend in our fight against communism.
The argument by those in favour of sanctions was 1. All conventional diplomatic steps had been tried with no substantial reform form the white South African government. 2. South Africa is dependent on the West economically and culturally and thus sanctions would make an impact on the government in contrast to those other nations of concern. 3. South Africa was a friend and if a friend did not change what grounds could be used to show other nations of concern (or greater concern) that implementation of fundamental human rights for all citizens were an essential part of the community of nations.
The soup analogy - 1. Yes, the scale of human beings suffering in Palestine is significantly less than suffering in the Congo, or North Korea. But Palestinians are still suffering and dying on the streets and that is a reason to act. 2. Actions are not mutually exclusive. You can raise concerns about the plight of Palestinians, Jewish-Israelis, Palestinian-Israelis, Christians in Egypt, Muslims in Egypt, the situation in Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, West Papua, Australia, the US, Mexico, wherever. Time is one limiting factor as is knowledge and personal priorities.
As a European Australian who grew up in a community with Aboriginal Australians and European Australians I see many parallels in negative attitudes between both communities and in both Israel and Australia. As a means to silence dissent (or for reasons of not understanding why other people act the way they do other than for some contrived false allegation of anti-Semitism) there will be those who say mind your own business and sort out your own problems before coming to 'us'. ALternatively, the approach is people act because they do not like see suffering and they want others to find peace. I agree with Uri Avnery and others who would see that apart purely from the moral position, practically if Jewish-Israelis want peace then they need to understand why Palestinians feel aggrieved. The old mantra of the Arabs this and the Aarbs that..(insert your negative racial stereotype) has not helped Israel one step towards peace.
A fresh and honest approach is required. Certainly guns and bombs are no solution. Generosity, compassion, empathy these are the keys to freedom. The sooner our leaders learn this , the sooner Israelis and Palestinians can live as neighbours in peace.
I did ask how you are trying to redress the evils in Australia and in other parts of the world. But Alas I did not rate a reply ,it would seem. You seem to be too busy and pre-occupied with the Palestinians to the exclusion of others.
Your analogy with South Africa and apartheid is extremely misplaced and disingenuous. If you were truly interested in the Palestinians or even the Arabs as a whole you would be screaming blue murder at what Hamas is doing to their own men and women and children. But again you are too busy exposing the evil Jews of Israel to notice anything wrong. You see nothing wrong with the murder of tourists by terrorists even though they may have been mistaken for Jews.
Yes, thee may be a time when Israelis and Arabs will live in peace but it is their decision and not your place to interfere. Your experience and history is not sufficient to replace their judgment with yours.
PS: There is no government in this world that I would not disagree with at one time or another but the Israeli government is responsible to their electorate ans not to me or to you or anyone else no matter who they are.
The Israeli government receives unconditional support from the UN and US. That is what makes Israel is the most urgent human rights issue.
Sudan never had UN support. The Sudanese atrocities were very serious. Yet, comparatively, it has taken minimal effort to resolve them.
Your argument that:
‘there may be a time when Israelis and Arabs will live in peace but it is their decision and not your place to interfere’, is nonsense. Everyone knows that Israel is 100% responsible for the plight of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.
A United Nations that makes ethical decisions is desperately needed. An end to the fundamental lack of integrity within the highest echelons of the United Nations will greatly benefit every vulnerable country.
Palestine is the best example there will ever be of the disgraceful corruption within the UN, because the UN has thoroughly documented every step of this corruption.
"The Israeli government receives unconditional support from the UN and US. That is what makes Israel is the most urgent human rights issue." REALLY?
Everyone knows that Israel is 100% responsible for the plight of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. - Palestinians play great victims but they only have their Arab brethern to blame - otherwise they would have had a state over 60 years ago.
Susan seriously, I dont understand your arguments.....
I think your comparision to south Africa is not very accurate... Black residents of South Africa did not have rights Arab Citizens of Israel have full rights... The question comes down to the Arabs living outside Israel proper in teh disputer terriitories... Of them 90% lives are no longer controlled on a daily basis by Israel but by the PA, so you see the comparison falls flat.
Also, Israel is not a colonizing force that took over a new land, they are coming back to
a homeland wich was once theirs and have even been supported in the UN resolution as to this
Regarding the soup analogy, forget about Congo, Saudi Arabia... what about the Palestinians themselves? The ones living under Arab rule - they have little rights, minorities are persecuted, journalist were recently jailed for speaking out against Abas. This is an overwhelliming majority of the Arabs living under "occupation", they are occupied by the PA and Hamas...
As we can see in recent poles, more Arabs in East Jerusalem would rather stay under the "horrible occupation" then live under a "free Palestine".. I am just not sure why this is not an issue for you. OK, tomorrow there is no occupation all Palestinians are free. Of course there is no freedom of the press, broad persecution of minorites, tourture and very limited human rights... what have you accomplished..
The discussion regarding Peace between Israel and Palestinians is practically about land and a state,like I mentioned they are mostly ruled by Arabs already, why not try to make their lives better? Why excuse or ignore it? Why accept racist rules like Anyone whio sells land to Jews will be put to death?
Is this the future you want?