Friends, please find below the official and full transcript of our first workshop in the three-part series on 'Freedom and Peace'. Thanks to all who participated!
- Me
Hello everybody! Welcome to tonight's MEPEACE Chat Workshop, the first in 2012, and the first in a new three-part series on the topic 'FREEDOM AND PEACE'.
Waleed HammadGood evening Oliver
MeSergio, Neri, Eyal, Waleed, are you all with me?
Welcome Waleed!
Eyal RavivYes. Hi All ;)
- Me
Welcome Libby & Len!
Welcome Eyal!
Sergio, are you here, too?
- Waleed Hammad
Hi Eyal and Oliver
- 7:01 PM
- Me
Well, Libby&Len, Sergio, I do hope you see what I write :) We have a complex topic, so we gonna make use of the 90 available minutes.. Let's start:
Libby and Len Traubmanok
- Me
Freedom is a highly controversial and ambiguous concept. While we all might agree that there cannot be lasting peace, not even serious efforts at conflict mitigation, without a certain notion of freedom, we may at the same have very different notions of what freedom actually is,....
what it is supposed to entail. Besides that, we can distinguish between several different kinds of freedom. There is personal freedom, economic freedom and political freedom, for instance....
And there is positive and negative freedom (a distinction - conceptualized by the political thinker Isiah Berlin - we're also going to talk about in the workshop). We might have a bias towards a specific kind of freedom, ...
- Eyal Raviv
:-)
Sergio StorchHi chaverim
- Me
and this bias might narrow our view on the other available and desirable 'freedoms'....
- Sergio Storch
good 2012 for all!!!
- Me
This Chat Workshop will start with a 'blank page'. That means that we do not pretend to know what freedom is, we do not pretend to really know what it means for us and our fellow human beings, and we have no common idea why and how it could be important for conflict mitigation and management, ...
and finally peace. Our goal is to find a definition we all can live with, even if that may mean that each of us has to make some kind of compromise, for the sake of accomplishing a basis for mutual understanding and co-existence...
The main objective of this three-workshop series is to figure out a kind of 'freedom' that is of advantage to all citizens instead of working for the benefit of only one group in society, or a small privileged elite...
Let's learn from each other, let's be teachers and students at the same time, and hopefully, in the end, find a sort of consensus on a working definition of freedom in relation to conflict mitigation.
Everybody take your time to read through above introduction...
If you have any questions beforehand, raise your hand :)
....and, welcome Sergio and Libby&Len!
Good 2012 to you, too, Sergio!
- Libby and Len Traubman
Q:
- Waleed Hammad
Yes, Len .. go ahead
- Sergio Storch
i´ve read it. Great text. I´d like to highlight: "how it could be important for conflict mitigation and management, ... and finally peace." Great context.
- Me
Thanks, Sergio. I'm looking forward to tackle this concept
Len, feel free to ask
- Sergio Storch
forgot the rules. If i want to talk, what´s the convention?
- Libby and Len Traubman
Do you imagine it's best to begin personally, with ourselves, and with how we each experience and use freedoms? How we spend our time and our money, being very, very concrete?
- Me
no convention yet... I will introduce the rules in a sec :)
Len, I will announce the first leading question in a min...
...and you'll see, it's a very very general one...
- Libby and Len Traubman
DANKE
- Me
but, first, the rules as usual
you're all quite experienced with our rules, so...
let's just repeat that it's important to 'raise your hand'...
and don't forget to add (...) if you're not finished w your statement
and put (.) when you're done, or just write 'Done'
Thanks for your attention!
This is our first leading question for tonight:
What is freedom?
Guys, what is freedom? What does it mean to you? What do you make of it?
And, Len, personal answers appreciated :)
- Libby and Len Traubman
rmh
- Me
Len
- Libby and Len Traubman
I Skype with people in Gaza.....
With them, and even in the West Bank, they're afraid to be too vocal or visible. . . .
then electricity goes OFF beginning at 6:00 AM in the morning...
so I feel sooooooooooo free to be myself, seek high ideals, and communicate without fear. . .
and thus am terribly grateful for true freedom. (end)
- Waleed Hammad
rmh
- Me
Waleed
- Waleed Hammad
Freedom means when you are able to do, say and move without control or observation from others ..
- 7:18 PM
- Waleed Hammad
As I reside in Delhi .. I feel that I am free to share our events online although my friends , Palestinian peacemakers, can't do the same ..
- Sergio Storch
rmh
- Waleed Hammad
due to the war on normalization
.
end
- Me
Sergio
- Sergio Storch
i understand then that the gazans and westbankers
- Me
Welcome, Linda!
- Waleed Hammad
Welcome, Linda
- Sergio Storch
have limitations on their freedom because of telecom infrastructure...
am i right?
linda abedGood evening
- Sergio Storch
or you mean something else?
- Libby and Len Traubman
rmh
- Me
I mean, generally, what is freedom?
- Libby and Len Traubman
sry
- Me
No direct connection to the Middle East necessary
not yet
let's keep it general for the start
Len - after Sergio
- Sergio Storch
sry???
- linda abed
Feedoom necessry to all peoplel
- Sergio Storch
rmh
- Me
Linda, please read our rules above...if you want to communicate a statement, please 'raise your hand' before. Thanks
Sergio - Len
- Sergio Storch
freedom is the ability one has to DO whatever he or she needs for his life
and to move around
done
- Me
Len
- linda abed
rmh
- Me
Len - Linda
- Libby and Len Traubman
With Gazans and West Bank citizens, to answer your question, it is not an Internet technology problem. . .
but fear. . .
of one's own people and one's own governing political figures and police. . .
- 7:26 PM
- Libby and Len Traubman
and also, with Jewish and Palestinian Israelis is fear of one's own people. This is why I feel so much gratitude for freedom to express and create whatever I can imagine. (done)
- Sergio Storch
rmh
- Me
Linda - Sergio
- linda abed
i agree wtth freedom and peace to much nessery to us /,, we in gaza really need peace and to live in freedom /,,,
life without freedom like deth
- Me
Sergio, let me say something before you can go on, ok?
- Sergio Storch
all right
- Me
The intellectual Isaiah Berlin distinguished between positive and negative freedom...
Your example, Sergio ("freedom is the ability one has to DO whatever he or she needs for his life and to move around "....
is a great example of positive freedom...meaning, to use one's own agency...
while Len highlighted negative freedom ("fear. . . of one's own people and one's own governing political figures and police. . . ")...
meaning that Gazans, in Len's words, would need less political constraints...
Negative freedom means living without constraints from other parties (state, family,...)
Thanks for your attention.
Sergio, pls go ahead
- Sergio Storch
so palestinian freedom doesn´t depend only on the suppresion of the blockade and the occupation, rather especially on the change they ´d need to effect in their own society
done
- Me
Let me ask:
What is more important for you: positive or negative freedom? What is easier to achieve?
- Eyal Raviv
rmh
- Me
Eyal
- Eyal Raviv
thanks...
Positive freedom is more important to me... (I prefer anything positive)...
- Sergio Storch
RMH
- Eyal Raviv
and I think positive freedom is also easier to achieve.
Would be glad to hear what Sergio and others think.
- Me
Sergio
- Sergio Storch
am i right in reminding the teachings of rabbis who said...
that it was easier to take the people from slavery in egypt...
than in taking away egypt from within our soul
?
done
- 7:36 PM
- Me
How would you interpret that saying, Sergio?
- Sergio Storch
excuse me: why does the screen disappear suddenly so often requiring to look for it again
- Me
I'm not familiar w that problem, sorry.
- Waleed Hammad
Sergio , try to pop the screen out
- Sergio Storch
i think the second is related to negative freedom
- Waleed Hammad
it will be easier for you
- Sergio Storch
and how to pop out? brrrr
- Waleed Hammad
there is a black line "Main Room" .. look at the two small squares and click on them
- Sergio Storch
don´t see these small squares
- Me
Let's slowly move on to the second leading question:
Why might it be difficult to find a common definition of what freedom is supposed to be?
- 7:41 PM
- Me
(Sergio, simply open the Chat from the Menu on the top part of the mepeace homepage. Then you'll have a second window, just for the chat)
- 7:42 PM
- Sergio Storch
good, now it´s ok, tks
- Me
The floor is open for comments on our second question
- Libby and Len Traubman
rmh
- Me
Len
- Libby and Len Traubman
V
Vaclav Havel planned and wrote about a free future while he was in prison, so. . .
none of us needs to "wait" to begin planning -- alone and together -- what our future looks like. (end)
- Sergio Storch
rmh
- Me
Sergio
- Sergio Storch
i am still wrestling with berlin´s notion of negative freedom
...
- Me
Sergio - Oliver
- Sergio Storch
and i am thinking that what libby/len said pose challenges even to a person who isn´t free
...
- linda abed
rmh
- Sergio Storch
so that he can seek for his own freedom, and achieve it
...
- Me
Sergio - Oliver - Linda
- Sergio Storch
it´s a matter of individual responsibility...
toward all its social environment, so that he can achieve the freedom that is possible...
- linda abed
Because ther is of the freedom of many kinds
- Sergio Storch
...
- linda abed
soory
- Sergio Storch
that makes me remind of a reading 40 years ago, in Erich Fromm, a book called Fear of Freedom...
done
- Me
Thanks. Linda, pls give me some time to comment, ok?
Len, you mentioned Havel...
I know he wrote and spoke about freedom...
- Libby and Len Traubman
Let's give Linda some space here.
- Me
but it was him who was one of the strongest supporters of US foreign policy during the Bush era...
so, there ARE problems w defining freedom.
Done.
Linda
- linda abed
Because of the freedom of many kinds, Freedom of religion, freedom of expression, freedom of movement
- Me
pls go ahead
Linda, could you elaborate on this? What 'kind' of freedom is the most important for you?
personally?
- linda abed
movement travlling
- Me
You live in Gaza, right?
- linda abed
yes
- Me
would you agree with what Len said above? Do you have fear?
- 7:52 PM
- Sergio Storch
rmh
- Me
Linda - Sergio
- linda abed
yes
no
- Sergio Storch
Linda, may i ask you a question?
- linda abed
ok
- Sergio Storch
what if ...
- Me
yes or no? to what are you referring, Linda?
Sergio, wait a sec, please
- linda abed
iam not afrad
- Me
Sergio, go ahead, please
- linda abed
iam very happy to be with you
- Sergio Storch
if you shared your feeling of lack of freedom with friends in gaza, gradually, do yu think you might together be empowered to get more freedom?
example...
- Me
...and we feel honored you're with us, Linda
- Libby and Len Traubman
Na'am, Linda.
- Sergio Storch
say, three or four of you try to get with our help, for example, the possibility of traveling to visit friends in the west bank
...
would it be imaginable that you might accomplish that?...
...
one more example, i remind the situation this year of israeli women smuggling palestinians to take bath in the sea in telaviv
- linda abed
yes of couse
- Waleed Hammad
give her sometime .. I translate the question to her
- Sergio Storch
that worked out in spite of israeli government...
it´s a civil disobedience strategy, which is nonviolent and would get international support
done
ah...
one more thing
my tendency is to think on the concept and do something immediately to change that situation...
done
- linda abed
very good but we want achve freedon to all people
in gaza
not me
- Sergio Storch
rmh
- Me
Sergio
- linda abed
wat we do to change that situation in gaza
- Sergio Storch
yes, linda, now let´s switch from the individual level to a group level and then to a societal level
in each of those levels the support of israelis and internationals can help you achieve it
...
- Me
Welcome Boguslaw!
- Sergio Storch
and i think that here we can organize to start doing it in a piecemeal way, and growing...
done[
- Waleed Hammad
rmh after Linda's answer
- Me
Linda - Waleed
- linda abed
really we in gaza not need eat , drink we want lettel freedom
- Sergio Storch
rmh
- Me
Thanks for your openness, Linda
Waleed - Sergio
- linda abed
not at all
- Waleed Hammad
to answer the second leading question
- Sergio Storch
http://www.facebook.com/shahd.abusalama
- Me
Sergio, it's Waleed's turn. Thanks.
- Waleed Hammad
Regardless the different views and definitions for “Freedom”, humanity makes us one with common needs and interests in life as individuals.. We do not like restriction, observation so this will unify our definition for “Freedom”
. end
- Me
Thanks for this detailed reply.. Worth contemplating, indeed.
The floor is open!
Sergio
- Waleed Hammad
you welcome
- Sergio Storch
Linda, may I suggest that you do some presential talk with these friends of mine? http://www.facebook.com/shahd.abusalama
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=874820416
Shahd and Fidaa
- linda abed
ok
- Sergio Storch
and then we might talk again
feel free to call me on facebook
i´ve developed good friends in gaza, who can help you figure out on how to fight for freedom using politics
with the help of israelis who don´t agree with israeli government
and with help of internationals
done
- Me
Who else sees any problems/issues with defining freedom? Would everyone agree on Waleed's definition?
- Eyal Raviv
rmh
- Me
Waleed's definition really builds on negative freedom...
Oliver - Eyal
- Eyal Raviv
:-)
- Me
in that he highlights that "we don't like restrictions"...
Mutasem MafarjehHello everybody
- Me
I guess that from the 'opportunity' of negative freedom, we can gradually move to a more positive notion of freedom.
Done
Eyal
- Waleed Hammad
ahlan Mutasem .. Welcome
- Eyal Raviv
Thanks...
- Me
Welcome Mutasem
- Eyal Raviv
Ahlan Mutasem!
I agree with Waleed's definition and with what you add, Oliver...
I would add a thought, though...
Defining Freedom is an oxymoron...
What I mean is that Freedom is difficult to define because it is supposed to be free...
Practically, we might have to let the word be free of definitions ;)
...
And this has a practical lesson for all of us in our conflict...
- Me
Great, Eyal. Philosophical. Something to think aboit, definitely.
- Eyal Raviv
because many times, all too often, humans are imprisoned...
Humans are born to be free, they should be free... and so I say we (Israel) should take a look at how it imprisons Palestinian prisoners.... (thousands)
and frankly, and I say this as an Israeli, Israel should look at how it imprisons Palestinians (even those outside of prison)...
Practically speaking, I think we all should value freedom and employ it in practice. This way we can all achieve freedom of thought, freedom of action, and freedom of peace.
- Me
We have 15 mins left, let's move on to our 3rd and final leading question: How does freedom relate to conflict mitigation and conflict management, and, in the end, peace?
Eyal just now already mentioned the occupation acting as the opposite of freedom...
probably others can build on that.
Mutasem, what would you say, regarding the 3rd leading question
?
- 8:16 PM
- Me
The floor is open.
- Mutasem Mafarjeh
oliver im having a call
really sorry
- Libby and Len Traubman
rmh
- Me
No problem... The floor is open to everybody.
Len
- Libby and Len Traubman
I'm so upset. . .
about the ongoing. . .
ignorance and prolonging the idea of "normalization" . . . .
which STOPS freedom. . .
- Sergio Storch
rmh
- Libby and Len Traubman
and STOPS creativity. . .
- Me
Len - Sergio
- Libby and Len Traubman
that can come only from engagement of free citizens.
(end)
- Me
Sergio
- Sergio Storch
i´ve just gotten the feeling - i may be wrong - that there is a lot that can be done right now in developing people-s empowerment to take their destiny in their hands, regardless of normalization or whatever...
- Mutasem Mafarjeh
rmh
- Sergio Storch
my feeling as i listened to Linda is that an immediate challenge is on political education...
- Me
Sergio - Mutasem
- Sergio Storch
I once sent a few links to a young engineering student in gaza, with the stories in youtube of gandhi, martin luther king etc...
he got very happy with that because he had never heard about these stories...
there´s no restriction for us to hold linda and so many people-s hands, and take them through very simple acts to defy their perception of lack of freedom...
very simple acts, that may result immediately in getting some of them to cross israel and visiting hebron, ramallah etc...
that´s within our reach...
- linda abed
Great idea
- Me
Mutasem
- Libby and Len Traubman
rmh
- Sergio Storch
then i think... excuse me libby and len, i appreciate and admire greatly your work and compassionate listening... but my feeling is that these peoples need subversion, civil disobedience, and adding up to nonviolent resistance
- Me
(Sergio, sorry, time is short. Thx for understanding)
- Sergio Storch
with visibility globally to enlarge it throught the media
done
- Me
Mutasem - Len
- Mutasem Mafarjeh
I wanted to say that only negotiating with free people can lead to serious solution and so only free people can negotiate
- Me
go on, please, if you want
- Mutasem Mafarjeh
this is in response to your question about freedom
and conflict
- Sergio Storch
rmh
- Me
Len (final comment for this Chat Workshop)
- Mutasem Mafarjeh
free people will dare to ask for their freedom
done
- Me
Thanks, Mutasem. A great statement
Len (final comment)
- Libby and Len Traubman
I will never forget an image on our Skype screen from December. . .
- Me
(we want to start the first Meeting for Hope on time)
- Libby and Len Traubman
of Omar, with no electricity. . .
shining a light on his face, so we could see him . .
sitting in the dark in Gaza, with no electricity, with a battery powreed laptop computer and Skype. . .
so, so eager to communicate!!!!!
It borught tears to our eyes. . .
gratitude for the freedom to communicate. . .
and reminded us that we who have freedom to communicate MUST do that to remember that. . .
"an enemy is one whose story we have not hear." (end)
- Me
Friends, I'm so proud you all shared so freely and honestly. It was a great, productive workshop.
everybody is encouraged to delve deeper into the topic, by highlighting the topic in a discussion, by writing a blog about freedom...
and what it can mean for conflict mitigation, or just by chatting with fellow peacemakers about it. ..
Your action after each workshop is also a good basis for the respective upcoming workshops in the series, which will focus on 'freedom' in relation to conflict mitigation in the Middle East in particular...
Thanks for taking part tonight!
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