Jeff, you justify everything, EVERYTHING, that Israel has ever done.
How would my agreement, (along with all of Palestine agreeing) with everything Israel has done, bring peace?
What is needed for peace?
What is required of Israelis for peace?
What is required of Palestinians for peace?
Everyone is welcome to answer, not just Jeff. I would apppreciate your participation.
If you believe in peace, you have to have a few ideas on how it can be achieved.
Its unfortunate that you make this so personal, my goal here is also peace, the only question is the way to get there.
I believe that in order to have peace all the fighting must stop... No rockets, no missles. When this happens I believ Israel should move quickly on getting teh Palestinians on a track to statehood - help build economy, build new joint projects remove as many checkpoint and the blockaid of Gaza.
After trust has ben restored I think an agrement can be hammered out. I believe the basis to this agreement should be an Arab and a Jewish state in line with 181. I would avoid transfer of people fom their homes as much a spossible.
In terms of settlements, I believe there will be a need to take down all settlements that do not allow for a continant Palestian state but would leave all large settlemnet blocks...
In exchange for the settlement blocks I make up for teh land I would give the PA control over the "Arab Triangle" in Israel that contains ~million Palestinains Israelis and make them full fleged Palestinain citizens (of course without removing a single person from their home) - simple redraw the border.
The new state would have to be demiliterized.
In terms of the right of return I believe for the sake of family reunification a limited amout of Palestinains should be given the right to live in Israel and made full citizens and the rest should be settles in the new Palestinain land. In terms of compensation, I think this should be worked out with Arab countries in terms of compensation for Jewish refugees from their countries as well and perhaps make a fund from all parties to compensate both Jews and Arabs from both Israel and Arab countries.
In terms of Jeruslalem I think it should be the capital of two countries with the general rule of wha is Arab remain Arab and Jewish remain Jewish... In terms of the holy sites they should be open to all religions and an international force should be placed in the old city, city of david and mount of Olives... Prayer should be allowed for all at all sites, including allowing Jews to pray on teh temple mount. The same shoudl go for the holy sites in Hebron.
In terms of prisoners. A line should be draw... those who are convicted of murder or attemetd murder should finish theri sentances for both Jews and Arabs in prision. All other should be released after signing a document where they promise to keep teh peace.
Jeff, you have some good plans for peace. Jerusalem as capital for both countries would work well, but you need to rethink the suggestion that Palestine should be demilitarized. There are many who would suggest the same for Israel, and what is acceptable for one country will have to be acceptable for the other.
Trust will be difficult to establish until there are meaningful moves towards permanent peace. I think it is necessary to push forward with peace initiatives such as removing the blockade on Gaza. This would be a very good way to encourage trust.
I suspect you do not know much about Resolution 181. (There is so much to the history of Israel that it is normal to not know about extensive portions of what has happened.)
Resolution 181 achieved a majority vote only because some countries were manipulated. Plus, The United Nations had no business offering the nation of one people to the people of many nations. The UN General Assembly had neither the legal nor the legislative powers to impose such a resolution or to convey title of a territory; Articles 10, 11 and 14 of the UN Charter bestows the right on the General Assembly merely to recommend resolutions.
Despite all of these issues, Resolution 181 probably would have worked, if Israel had accepted the decision.
Instead, the most flagrant abuse of Resolution 181 came from Israel itself when they forcibly removed much of the Arab population from within the area designated for the Jewish State, and then pushed the borders of their newly created country far into Arab territory, evicting the Arabs from their own – newly created - country. So you see, to support Resolution 181 with the proviso that no one loses their home is very complicated. (700,000 Arabs lost their homes/livelihood when the State of Israel was created.)
Peace is what we are here to talk about, thus I would like to consider what should be done about the refugee population, because they are the source of much of the discontent.
I strongly suspect the refugees of Palestine are pivotal to a permanent peace.
" I think it is necessary to push forward with peace initiatives such as removing the blockade on Gaza."- Unfortunatelu, I do not believe Israel can remove the blockade until they truly believe that it will not be used to bing in more arms to kill civilians. Best example being the Victoria which was just stopped by Israel.
"I suspect you do not know much about Resolution 181" - you suspect incorrectly.... I am not talking about the conspiracies and behind the scenes stories of what you are claiming hapened (I am sure you take this as fact. I am talking about the simple fact that it calls on diving Palestine into a JEWISH and ARAB state, and that shoudl be used as teh baseline for a future peace. The jews accepting an Arab state and Arabs accepting a Jewish state.
As far as I know I know Israel did accept the decsions and at the end off mandate declared a state in accordance with the resolution. It was then attacked by 6 Arab countries...
Regardung Demilterized state, I see no reason why this should be an issue. Israel has been paying with many lves by the weponds (some of which it supplied) being used against them... What happens if/when Hamas takes over the west back but not has plans and an army to attack civilians, Israel cannot allow that.. Japan is demilterized, worked out pretty well for them... Why do Palestinaisn need an army anyway?
I agree teh refugees are a huge issue both Jewish and Arab and once agian I think teh Arab refugees should be settled in teh future Arab state just as teh Jewish refugees were settled in teh Jewish state. Like I mentioned in terms of reperations, I think that both Israel and Arab countried should build a fund to pay Araba and Jewish refugees reperations for all tah they lost.
Jeff, repeating yesteryears propagandistic mantras is meaningless.
Are you interested in peace, or is it the peace process that you love?
Not sure what montra you are talking about you asked me how I saw a final peace agreement I wrote it - you then started to go off on - conspiracies and whta really happened..
why dont you tell me how you see a fair peace? Like I did - tell me how you see all teh major issues solved.
Peace for Palestine means solving the refugee problem. When the needs of the refugees have been taken care of, the other issues will fall into place.
For the refugees, their original entitlements will need to be honoured. They all had houses, and most had either land or a business. Most of these people had the kind of personal possessions you acquire over one or more lifetimes. They were all financially independent until forced from their homes. Everyone who left was fully expecting to return to their house, farm, business, or whatever it was they left.
The UN arranged for their return, as a condition of the extra land Israel took in the ’48 war. Everyone believed these refugees would return.
The final divvying up of land will need to be population based in the sense that a larger population needs a larger spread of land.
Sort the refugee problem, and you will never see another qassam.
Sussan I think yu are missing the point here - BOTH Jews and Arabs were made refugees - why youi decide to ignore the Jews and not the Arabs is beyond me. There are is no two rights make a wrong but there are two wrongs that must be right-ed.
As for all your doubts regarding "Zionist" claims of expulsion - I suggest you read this:
or watch this short clip:
"you have to admit, it was the poor treatment of Arabs by Israel that led to this situation" -Are you serious? So Israel is a justification for anti-semitism?
Israel would not be able to allow the refugees to return, it would be th end of the Jewish state.... I am not sure if this is an issue or perhaps the purpose of such a move...
Look at the refugees from the 40's in the following decade they were all settled in dioffrent countries, going to thier homeland was not a given. Look at the Jews from Arab countries they too were resettled. I agree that compensation for ALL refugees, Jews and Arabs are needed and they should be able to return to the new Arab state if they like... But no Israeli government will accept the right of return...
As for your statement "They all had houses, and most had either land or a business. Most of these people had the kind of personal possessions you acquire over one or more lifetimes. They were all financially independent until forced from their homes" - I am prettty sure evn you dont believe that... most of them were probrably labourers, not "finaially independent". What perecnt of "everyday Arabs" in the mideast fit the descrption above? Palestine was not a wealthy country at all...
What are your sources for such a statement?
Jeff, I see why you are querying my ‘financially independent’ claim. I used term ‘financially independent’ to mean these Arabs [who lived in Palestine] were able to support themselves and their families. Maybe they were labourers, or small shop owners, or just street vendors, or as was the case with quite a few, owners of significant businesses. (My unspoken comparison was with the Palestinian refugees of today, many of whom are reliant on UN handouts.)
I was not suggesting that the folk living in Palestine were in any way so wealthy as to not need to work every day. By Arab standards, Palestine was affluent. It is worth remembering that at that time, the world had just passed through a massive world war, and prior to that war, there had been a terrible depression, so just being able to eat 3 meals a day and stay dry and warm at night was considered a major success. This was generally what Palestinians succeeded in doing. Not all the European countries were that successful.
I did not intend to mislead anyone, and place a very high value on the truth. I also appreciate your willingness to engage in discussion.
Now, here is some of the information you asked for verification on:
The following details all come from a book called ‘The Birth of Israel’ by Simha Flapan, who from 1954 to 1981 was National Secretary of Israel’s MAPAM party. He also lectured at Harvard.
Have you heard of the Absentees’ Property Law of 1950?
This law stated that any Arabs who left their places of residence between Nov ‘47 and Sept ’48, [note, this does not mean they actually crossed any borders], were declared absentees and their property subject to appropriation by the Custodian of Absentees Property.... As a result, 2 million dunams were confiscated...
A detailed account of exactly how ‘abandoned’ Arab property assisted in the absorption of the new immigrants was prepared by Joseph Schechtman... “The amount of this property,” he wrote in 1952, is “very considerable”:
2,990,000 dunams (739,750 arces) of formerly Arab-owned land, including olive and orange groves, vineyards, citrus orchards, and assorted tree gardens, became totally deserted... 2,070,270 dunams were of good quality, 136,530 of medium quality and 751,730 dunams were of poor soil. In addition, 73,000 dwelling rooms in abandoned Arab houses and 7,800 shops, workshops and storerooms became ownerless in towns and villages.
Bank accounts estimated to total up to 5 million Palestinian pounds and left in Arab and non-Arab banks were frozen by the Israel government. All of this Arab absentee property, movable and immovable, was entrusted to an official “custodian”.
Schechtman went on to detail how the property was utilized:
It is difficult to overestimate the tremendous role this abandoned Arab property has played in the settlement of 100’s of 1000’s of Jewish immigrants who have reached Israel since the proclamation of the state in May 1948. 47 new rural settlements established on the sites of abandoned Arab villages absorbed 25,255 new immigrants...over 1 million dunams leased by the custodian of Jewish settlements and individual farmers for the raising of grain crops.
Large tracts of land belonging to Arab absentees have also been leased to Jewish settlers, old and new, for the raising of vegetables. In the south alone, 15,000 dunams of vineyards and fruit trees have been leased to co-operative settlements; a similar area has been rented...This has saved the Jewish Agency and the government millions of dollars. While the average cost of establishing an immigrant family in a new settlement was from $7,500 to $9,000 the cost in abandoned Arab villages did not exceed $1,500
Abandoned Arab dwellings in towns have also not remained empty. By the end of July 1948, 170,000 people, notably new immigrants and ex-soldiers, in addition to about 40,000 former tenants...have been housed in premises under the custodian’s control; and 7,000 shops, workshops, and stores were sublet to new arrivals. The existence of these Arab houses – vacant and ready for occupation – has to a large extent, solved the greatest immediate problem which faced the Israeli authorities in the absorption of immigrants. It also considerably relieved the financial burden of absorption. [the italized details come from Joseph Schechtman’s book, The Arab Refugee Problem (New York, 1952) pp.95-96, 100-101, reprinted in Flapan’s book pp107-8.]
REMEMBER REMEMBER none of this land was genuinely abandoned. It was all confiscated, and the Arab owners were physically prevented from returning to their land. Nor were they allowed to sell their land, buildings or businesses. It was all stolen. The majority of the people who owned these assets are still within the Occupied Territories.
Here are some quotes from:
THE FORCED MIGRATION OF JEWS FROM ARAB COUNTRIES
Prof. Ada Aharoni
"The displacement of 850.000 Jews from Arab countries, the loss of all their assets and property, and the hardships accompanying their migration and emigration to Israel, constitute an aspect of the Middle East refugee problem which has been neglected"
"It is not generally known that the number of Palestinians who fled the newly formed State of Israel was surpassed by the number of Jews who were forced to emigrate from Arab countries."
I suggest you read this - it will give you all the numbers you can dream over
The 1947 Egyptian census reported 65,639 Jewish residents of that country, many of them in finances and liberal professions: engineers, lawyers, doctors and teachers. However, Jewish estimates ran as high as 100,000. Today there are only about 200 Jewish residents left in Egypt. When Egypt joined the 1948 invasion of Israel, it also promulgated anti-Jewish decrees, taking severe measures against those suspected of "Zionist" activities, including imprisonment in concentration camps in Huckstep and in El Tor in the Sinai desert. Jewish property was confiscated and hundreds of Jewish families were banished and dispossessed. Homes were bombed and many Jews were killed or wounded. A mob attacked the Jewish quarter of Cairo, killing a great number of Jews and looting their houses and shops. By November 1950, more than half the Jews had left the country; and most of them made new lives in Israel. Like the Iraqi and Syrian Jews, the Jews of Egypt had been a prosperous and rich community with assets in millions of dollars. When they were forced to uproot themselves, they lost everything.
Now explain why these people do not deserve compensation....