Just saw this article, which really disturbs me as a human being and also as a resident of Tel Aviv. The Israelis who frightened these people so much that they had to move away from their jobs should be prosecuted in court—no doubt! It is too often in this country that we hear stories about racism, not only in institutional policies but on a personal social level as well.
"'Palestinian-Israelis have it better off than in other Arab lands...therefore what's the problem?' - was not my point or my conclusion at all. I said all discrimination should end but, I think those who "really" need help are the Arabs with "self-determination".
I just don't understand why Israel is always considered the big human rights abuser... When the UN human rights commity has 20 resolutions against Israel out of 25... You would that we were killing people in teh street yes, Syria, Iran, Egypt, Sudan, china, Cuba get no mention...does this make any sense?
"Palestinians living in the Occupied territories have put up with too much for too long and continue to be killed regardless if nonviolent protests are used." Really and the ones who blow themselves up and shoot rockets - in teh name of peace? Why not attack them for their huge civil rights abuses...ever or it is justified for freedom fighters... The whole double standard it riduculous...
You realize any Palestinian state will give teh Arabs a much worse situation then they have now... You know how women, gays, non-moslems are treated...is taht ok because they have self determination?
Once again there is a difference between state sanctioned Racism and that of a few nuts. i condemn it and will fight it in every way. Do you condemn the law that says selling land to Jews is a capital offence or do you want to try to "understand" it again......
There is much we agree on - HR abuses in Arab countries etc...but
Dan, there is plenty we agree about in terms of the present discrimination and human rights abuses occurring in Arab countries. You just have to look at the events in Egypt in recent days. And again I repeat my fears for the future Palestinian State. How will Palestine not become a South Africa, Zimbabwe, Kenya or Papua New Guinea? But what are the alternatives here? Another 20 years of occupation 30, 40 years? There have been too many Palestinians and Israelis who have lost their lives. The sooner the occupation ends the sooner the long road to state building begins - which will take decades and will involve instability and violence. But sadly, to build a new state this is what happens. To delay any further will only damage future generations.
The reason for our differences is because of our different experiences. I have spent the past decade writing on the conflict and meeting people from various sides. My deep sadness is the tendency of those who from either side of the fence going round in circles and deny any wrong-doing. They point the finger at some other country and say what about this one or that one as if that absolves any of the wrong they have committed. Please compare apples with apples.
Understanding how UN resolutions work
The UN has so many resolutions critical of Israel because that is something the the global community can agree on. People mistakenly misrepresent the quantity of UN resolutions against a country as a sign of the gravity of human rights abuses occurring in a country. No this is not how it works. All the quantity reflects is the uncontroversial political agreement on this issue. The situation in China, Congo, Iran, North Korea - these are places that the UN really needs to do some work. The problem is when countries like Israel ignore the UN resolutions why then should any one else follow them. Countries set a bad precedence by failing to follow UN resolutions (especially Security Council ones). The rule of law is in the best interests of Israel and her neighbours.
Look, I too want peace. But am afraid. i am scared. Israel has given Palestinians land, control, weapons and what it received was suicide bombings rockets and murder. You must understand, planes can be shot down from the Judean hills with a shoulder missile launcher - do I trust Palestinians taht will not allow that to happen. Beit jala was shooting are neighboring Gilo civilians. Do I trust that If i give away more land it will not happen all over teh country. Arabs have a horrible record of religious freedom for Jews in the holy land do I trust that giving them he Cave of the Patriarch will allow Jews to vistit and pray.
Israel has taken many chances for peace and they have been answer by Jihad Intifada and war. You know less people were killed 10 years before teh Oslo accords than 2 years after.
How can you ever expect Israel to trust Palestinians with their security?
Dan, I too am scared for the future. My point is that what are the alternatives? If we choose control we wind up as occupiers and complicit in the abuse of the human rights of another. This course of action prejudges all Palestinians as a threat and as a perpetrator. This is against everything that human rights, criminal law and liberal democracy stands for. [Remember how we were discussing the difference between lawful and unlawful discrimination - will this is classic unlawful discrimination (as it is solely based on nationality) but it is worse as it involves the occupation of a people].
If we choose to relinquish control and share power between two states this too will have unavoidable consequences ie further violence, right wing backlash. The reality is violence and death is inevitable in the short-term. There are too many people on the ground who have been hurt. But this violence is short-term. There is enough people with good will on both sides for peace to be found. It is generational, but it will be found.
Thesis - Empathising With the Enemy
" If we choose control we wind up as occupiers and complicit in the abuse of the human rights of another." - And if we give them a state and we have rockets on Tel-Aviv like on Sderot.... Our experience gives us no reason to trust it will not lead to long term blood shed. Other than the fact that you dont want to be an occupier, do you have any reason to believe that a state will bring peace?
"Arab-Israelis when you say that it is worse in certain countries. Well, it was worse in South Africa for blacks than it was in the United States in 1975. That didn't make the prejudice non-existent. "
I agree and condemn racism in every way... my point was that this is not racism built into the law... All I said is that the Arabs in Israel have more rights than the ones in pretty much every Arab country... They are the ones whop "really" need your help.
"I don't really think Syrian Christians or Jordanian Christians are treated worse than Arab Israelis, and they live under dictatorships". - Really? how long do you think they would go to prision in Syria if they said anything publically bad against Assad, or wrote in the papers some deamonizing remarkes against King Husein? Other than human right, self determination and freedom of expression, maybe you are right...
BTW...Palestinians in Jordan and Suni in Syria have governmental discrimination built in.... they could only dream of the freedom Israeli Arabs have in Israel....
Thank you Daniel for this post, please read carefully what I'm going to tell you. The Palestinians understands well that the Samaritans are different from the Jews living in Israel, I mean the Jews living in Israel carry guns, guard the checkpoints, shoot people, torture prisoners, and I don't mean by that all the Israelis, like there is many Palestinians have guns and ready to do the same if they had the chance to do so, anyway, the Samaritans do not do that and they live at peace with the Palestinians, they even share nearly the same problem with them, like curfews bombing and even they have relatives in Israeli's prisons.
Tow of my Samaritan's friends are working with me, Reem & Linda in Nablus health directorate, We even share the salute in our different occasions like holidays & Shabat Shalom.
When I was young I used to go to their house to turn off the Electricity because as you know religious Jews never touches Electricity or even eat meat on Saturday.
They share the schools & Universities with us, never felt themselves less than the Palestinians in anyway of life. Samaritans are well know about their capability of using magic and occultism, so many Palestinians uses their help to fix certain things in their lives like saving a crashing marriage, finding a good job etc.
At the end, all I wanna say is that whatever you are, whatever religion you believe in you are always welcome in our community.
Racism does not exist in our community because we don't want it, you also should try that at yours, we need to change from the inside to change what's outside.
For me I used mepeace to convince people of the importance of living at peace and free without a fight.
wish you the best my friend,
"I mean the Jews living in Israel carry guns, guard the checkpoints, shoot people, torture prisoners, and I don't mean by that all the Israelis, like there is many Palestinians have guns and ready to do the same" You realize this is the equivalent of saying the the "Arabs living in Palestine blow themselves up in cafes, shoot into nursery schools destroy synagogues all so they can free arab land and go to heaven with 72 virgins"
"Racism does not exist in our community because we don't want it, you also should try that at yours, we need to change from the inside to change what's outside." really so I can buy land there or will the price of that be the death penalty as to the law of land.
I also believe in peace just as much as the next guy I just dont believe in teh justification of racism for political reason which seems way to common in certain circles.
Just an FYI regarding Samaritans. There are two communities of 300 people one living in Holon and nearon Har Grizim. There are more people living in a block or two in Tel aviv. They are not so relevant to this discussion.
I still have yet to hear any condemnation of the racist PA law of death to anyone who sells land to Jews. I have heard a number of excuse, justifications or something..
Arabs living in Palestine blow themselves up in cafes, shoot into nursery schools destroy synagogues all so they can free arab land and go to heaven with 72 virgins"hehe, How many Palestinian participated in that compared to the Conscription in Israel?, In Palestine we do not force people to carry guns or blow themselves in caffes, a very few do so because they belong to Extremist groups, and FYI they are being combated like arresting Hamas members and send them to prisons.
"they can free arab land and go to heaven with 72 virgins", what the hell is this???, Is it sarcasm???, I refuse to make comment on that...
"really so I can buy land there or will the price of that be the death penalty as to the law of land", are you living on another planet???, do you really know what settlers do in west-bank??, selling land to Israel means more settlements, hehehe, we can barely live in our cities surrounded with settlements and checkpoints, the IDF army guarding them when they attack people on the streets, My friend you don't want to do that if you were Palestinian, because it means suicide. It's a basic need.
Please, Come to Nablus to visit me in Person and I will show you what the hell is going on here, and don't be afraid about your life from me, I'm not terrorist and I don't blow my self in Cafes, you can ask Eyal and Freeman Poritz about their visit to Nablus and the wonderful times they spent in my City.
You are sooo deranged my friend,
Peace, Salam, Shalom
Firstly, lets make sure we dont loose the context here... you said " I mean the Jews living in Israel carry guns, guard the checkpoints, shoot people, torture prisoners" to this I responded ""they can free arab land and go to heaven with 72 virgins". Just like you group Israelis together I was showing you how in appropriate it is.... Firstly, when you talk about soldiers yes they carry guns and guard checkpoints like every other SOLDIER (not Israeli) in the world. Let me ask you dont your policeman do the same thing?... The problem is the later part of your statement "shoot people torture prisoners" this is what Israelis do?????
Then I say to teh same effect "Arabs living in Palestine blow themselves up in cafes, shoot into nursery schools destroy synagogues all so they can free arab land and go to heaven with 72 virgins"
it was a simple response which "maybe I should have refused to comment on".
"selling land to Israel means more settlements, hehehe, we can barely live in our cities surrounded with settlements and checkpoints, the IDF army guarding them when they attack people on the streets, My friend you don't want to do that if you were Palestinian, because it means suicide"
STOP JUSTIFYING RACISM!!! The law is wrong and against human rights!
Let me explain to you what conscription means to the IDF. It is meant to ensure the security of its citizens and they have a tough job. they have an enemy that often does not wear uniforms. There is the cynical use of women and children to smuggles weapons aimed at civilians.
Do you think anyone wants to man checkpoints? They are only there to stop the terrorists (you Extremist groups- I am sorry when someone purposely target civilians and celebrates their death they are terrorists) from murder. Lets say IDF opened all checkpoints? what do you honestly think will happen? How long before bombs go off all over the countries cafes of buses.... What is Irael to do when the Palestinains elected officials call for mardom and bloodshed. They recruit kids from when they are young to kill Jews, have u seen Hamas TV (not that PA TV is much better). "a very few" as you say... This "very few" won PA elections!!!!!
Seriously - what can Israel do give away more land so more missiles can be launched from, open checkpoints to target more civilians? Or maybe now commercial plane?
Support for suicide bombings among Palestinians was at 55% percent 2 years ago..... maybe its not you who is doing teh bombing but one out every two neighbors of your support it...
Do you not see why we are in the situation we are today? I know you want to blame it all on the occupation - but there is NO EXCUSE for the murder or support of the murder of civillians. Do you feel comfortable being in a society that is so racist and full of hate that the overwhelmingly support teh murder of innocents. And you think conscription to the Israel defense forces is problematic.....