Remembering April 24th, Israeli Palestinian Memorial Day

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Igor Gonev on May 1, 2012 at 10:56pm

Frankly, I do not care who your parents were. It is of no interest to me. When one swears in court it is to the fact that they will state facts and not opinions unless specifically asked to do so and this will be given weight by the jury as to its validity. People are ostracized in society for simply denying a truth, ie the Holocaust as an example.People have interpreted res 242 to give it meanings that it does not contain. and the written document is in fact a truth that cannot be denied. It does not even mention the Palestinians nor does it imply thta Israel must leave these territories and I challenge you or anyone else to dispute it. you are not being asked to take sides but rather to present the facts without injecting misinterpretations. Jews have not given up claims to their properties in Arab land or claims for compensation irrespective of what diplomats or journalists want Israelis to do.You turn this wish arount to make it sound as if this is a fact that Israelis/Jews abandoned that claim. That is false.

Permalink Reply by Tim Upham on April 30, 2012 at 9:28pm

Anybody can read information, and interpret what it means.  That is the reason why when studying the Talmud, it turns into a debate of what it means, and what it does not mean.  When it comes to the debate about who should compensated over what, that is the reason why White Hall is trying to get it dropped, because it is just holding up the process of creating a two-state solution.  But I cannot have it be, how can you be Jewish, when you do not 100% percent support Israel.  What I 100% percent support is Israel to be able to coexist with its neighbors.  It is no different when Shimon Peres was to receive the U.S. Congressional Medal of Honor, and the outcry was how can he Jewish when he does not 100% percent support Israel.  What he 100% supports is Israel to be able to coexists with its neighbors.  So interpret that as the truth.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff stern on May 1, 2012 at 11:57am

Tim -

Fact - Israel never gave up on the rights of Mizrachi refugees

Fiction - teh statement you said

 

Can we agree on this?

Permalink Reply by Sussan on April 30, 2012 at 12:53pm

It is not PEACE that needs to be promoted, but rather JUSTICE. Peace automatically flows from a commitment to justice. Unless Palestinian refugees are offered the opportunity to experience a good future, the fighting will continue. These refugees have lost everything, many are willing to take great risks, because there is nothing left to lose.

 

Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza do not have any LEGAL responsibility for these refugees. A peace settlement that does not include direct negotiations with these refugees is not going to result in peace: just more of the same violence and skirmishing.

Israel may be there to stay, but will Israeli’s ever enjoy peace? The choice is Israel’s. The Palestinians have made their choice (in the face of defeat), and we are witnessing the results of their choice. Israel has won (or have they), and at what price?

 

Remember, if you want peace, think JUSTICE, for Palestinians.

 

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Permalink Reply by Jeff stern on April 30, 2012 at 1:25pm

Sussan you shoudl be spouting justice for all - that is your problem.  You are obsessed with this one issue that blocks you from seeing the bigger picture, other peopel suffering and finding a solution. 

I say Peace for all - justice is more of a nice to have at this point.

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Permalink Reply by Tim Upham on April 29, 2012 at 8:59pm

When looking at the concept of prayer, there two ways it can be applied.  First of all, pray for those Israelis and Palestinians who have died.  Second of all, pray for their families.  So pray does have its place.  When the term refugee camp is used, it is not implying those people are all living in tents.  I have been to those areas deemed refugee camps, and people are living in multi-roomed houses.  If it is on land that they own before 1948, no it was not on land that they owned.  Somebody else owned it.  When you look at land in Israel today, the majority of it is privately owned.  As for kibbutzim and moshavim, in 1938 it is 32.3 percent of it owned by these cooperatives.  Today it is down to 2.5 percent.  If Palestinians were trying to return to these areas, and they blocked by Israeli authorities, then what about the number that came into Israel for employment?  And the 1,413,500 Arab citizens of Israel, that never left after 1948.  Israel did place bans on Palestinians coming from the West Bank and Gaza, from coming into Israel to seek employment after the series of intifadas and suicide bombings.  But the answer there is building a viable economy for the West Bank and Gaza, so they do not have to rely on coming into Israel for employment.  Instead of praying we can go back to 1948, it is best to apply our energies on creating a two-state solution, so that way everyone has a place to live.  So that leaves us with the insidious situation about the West Bank, what to do about the settlers living there?  Either return them back or stay and become citizens of Palestine, because we just cannot have situations where people are living in areas that are either Arab-free or Jew-free.

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Permalink Reply by Igor Gonev on May 1, 2012 at 6:27pm

Tim, please tell us what lands were taken over by the settlers where Palestinians were living. What villages and/or cities existed there or were they in fact barren land that were never inhabitted. Why is it insiduous that Jews and Israelis is living in their ancestral home amongst Arabs who have not been displaced.. I am just curious.

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Permalink Reply by Tim Upham on May 1, 2012 at 10:02pm

The land that the Jewish National Fund purchased was owned by absentee land owners living in places such as Beirut and Damascus.  The fellah worked the land, either through agriculture or handicrafts.  They worked the land, but they did not own it.  When you look at places such as Tel-Aviv, that was built on barren land north of Yaffo.  So it included barren land such as Tel-Aviv, and with the early olim, the cooperative settlement that they started, actually provided employment for the fellah.  So it is not a blanket statement that the olim taking over the land of the fellah, but the olim living with the fellah.  This leads to the present two-state solution. an independent Israel, living along side an independent Palestine.  So am I greatly threatening and being derogatory against Jewish people?  On this website, I sure shit am.

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Permalink Reply by Igor Gonev on May 1, 2012 at 10:41pm

What does this have to do with the cost of land. Do Jews have a right to empty land in Palestine or is it simply Waqf land that are untouchable as far as Jews are concerned. Quit skirting the issues and reply on point. I am well aware of recent history and the history of Tel Aviv-Jaffa-Haifa-Acco and all the other locations in Israel and Judea and Samaria. If the fellahs did not own the land than what is the international law that allows them to lay claim to it, other than through Jordanian conquest (not recognized) and how is it different from the Israeli return as based on the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine.

 

If we are going to discuss history , than lets discuss it based on facts and not fiction.

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Permalink Reply by Tim Upham on May 1, 2012 at 11:22pm

That is it.  It cannot be based on historical claims, it has to be based on where people presently live.  If we see now that Jerusalem is 64% Jewish, then whether anybody likes it or not, Jerusalem is a Jewish city, and that is a given.  When we see that the West Bank is 75% Muslim, then that would qualify it to be part of a designated Palestine.  Then there is why does not have to be an independent Jewish state, and an independent Arab state?  First of all, that is what the 1947 plan for partition called for, and second of all, that is what is being strived for.  We cannot go in and negate the past, what has happened, has happened.  The only thing was can do is focus on the present and the future.  There is really nothing fictitious about that.

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Permalink Reply by Igor Gonev on May 2, 2012 at 3:12am

Really and truly that is your belief. So wherever you have a group of people that are in the majority they can break away and form their own country? What about Cubans in Miami (Florida) or New Mexico or even Quebecois in Canada. So why will Spain not allow the Basques to secede or the Corsicans of France or the Kurds of Iran, Iraq and Turkey. Do these people not have the same rights as the late comers, the Palestinians or even the Jordanians.

Tho Kosovars got away (thanks to Clinton) with doing to the Serbians what the Palestinians want to do to the Jews. How long do you think it will be before the Serbs reclaim their lands, and that war is not going to be very civil.We had a taste of it already. You cannot allow a people to come in and usurp others lands and than claim it as their own. The Partition Plan died with 5 Arab Armies invading so lets look at the Mandate for Palestine as a starting point and work with Jordan to create two states for two peoples  and not one land divided into three countries at the expense of the Jews. If you want to negate the past as regards to refugees than this is a bad idea as they should have been absorbed in the Arab states were they reside as they have been compensated through UNWRA over the years and that includes their offsprings.

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Permalink Reply by Tim Upham on May 2, 2012 at 5:37am

Kosovo was declared the 195th independent country by the United Nations.  Serbia can try to take it back, but what about 92% of its population being Albanian?  It can unite with neighboring Albania.  Basically, Serbia's claim to it is that its medieval kings were crowned there, and there are notably medieval Serbian Orthodox churches there.  But was Serbian rule over the Kosovars always cordial?  What about NATO bombings against Serbia in 1999?  I would hate to see NATO bombings against Israel, because of the West Bank.

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