What is Zionism ?
What is Zionism ? Open question... share your thoughts
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Patrick Anderson on
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I sympathize with you Ohad. I do not empathize with you as I can not know what it feels like to be Jewish in this world.
Ohad Bracha said:
"what I want is to have place where I can be my self, not a minority, a place were I could speak hebrew, celebrate my culture and be proud of what I am."
I see the main thing that prevents you from doing this is Israel's occupation of Palestinian territory and the trouble that has ensued from the occupation and the USA's assistance of Israel. Jewish people have been subjected to many terrible things - I just don't see why the Palestinians have to pick up the bill for what was done by Western Christendom.
Come to New Zealand if you want to do those things you mentioned. We are not very religious down here and I'm sure no one would care if you went about your business. There is a synagogue not far from my house.
Hermann Goering was a very bad man but he had some interesting quotes:
Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
-Hermann Goering
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Permalink Reply by Ohad Bracha on -
wow Patrick I cant even begin to explain to you how offensive and disrespectful you invitation is... but I know you did not mean bad .
and you absolutely do not need to feel sorry for me, I have Israel and its a great country and I feel at home right there.
now about the occupation you are right the occupation must stop, and create Palestinian state next to Israel.
but to claim that the Palestinians suffers BC of the existence of Israel is unacceptable. in this case there is no solution but war.
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Permalink Reply by Basil Keilani on -
Ohad, Palestinians suffer because of the way Israel exists not because of simply an idea of an existence of a state called Israel. Do you understand the philosophical difference? It means
to me that a state called Israel exists and that state that exists is making Palestinians suffer, without a doubt. Its actions have also led to Israel suffering, as well. The PLO recognizes UN 242 and 338, and it recognizes Israel as a state. I don't care if you speak Hebrew or whatever language. I respect people's right to speak Hebrew, and the right of Arab Israelis to speak Arabic and have Arabic signs as 20% of the population should be respected.
I think, for me, Zionism used to be a bad word. For me, it was the practice of a racist ideology against Palestinians. However, I know, for sure, not all people who call themselves Zionists think this way, and the Zionists of 2010 are not the same, generally, as those of 1910. Many things have chaned in 100 years. I know for Israelis Zionism means a state of Israel and having an Israeli state. For Palestinians, they believed that Zionism means settlements, home demolitions, taking more and more land, torture in jails. That is what Zionism has meant for Palestinians including being refugees. Of course, later as I knew more Israelis I realized it was more complicated than that, and I accept a peaceful Israel that respects security for Palestinians, the 1967 borders, no more violence from any side and cooperation.
A person who is a Zionist is generally a regular Israeli. There are different kinds of Zionists.
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Permalink Reply by Ohad Bracha on
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well basil again as long as we agree on the solution which a two state solution in according to the international law. I am willing to take any blame.
in fact I am calling every one to blame me as long as they accept the two state solution. I take full responsibility for the last 61 years .
I want to make it clear though I am not asking for your permission or the new zealanders permission or any one else in the world permission for my freedom and independence . that is why we created Israel . after Palestine will be created and the constant threat on Israel will be gone the situation for the Israeli Arabs will be much much better ... that goes without saying. the conflict makes it very hard for them as well as for the jewish Israelis to really accept eachother..
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Ohad,
How dare you take offense. I take offense at your offense.
Jewish people and Muslim people have the same God - you would think this would be a good starting point.
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Permalink Reply by Ohad Bracha on
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Hi Patrick
please let me explain my self. I am taking offense for more the 5 million Israeli jews that are living freely in their country today . yet you don't think they deserve an independence . you think that the right place for them is as a minority under the mercy of the new Zealanders. some other here thinks that the right place for me is under the mercy of the arab nations , some would tell me that my place is under the mercy of the germans since they responsible for the holocaust. and I am saying I deserve to be free in my country and not under the mercy of any one else.
the fact that you don't respect that even thou you meant well is very offending ... just a pointer . I know you are a good person and I like you :) -
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Permalink Reply by Michael Weis on -
Connie,
Your long post leaves me very puzzled. You make some serious claims which I've never heard before. Your argument is based on several fundamental assumptions that makes me wonder where you learned them. Where did learn that:
1. The Levant is part of Saudi Arabia.
2. Hebrew is a subcategory of Arabic.
3. Torah was originally in Arabic.
4. Middle East conflict is a civil war.
5. Judaism is based on Islam.
I'm confused about the point you bring when you mention that you are Catholic and that Catholics know how things work in life.
You keep mentioning that Zionists or Jews or Israel should ask the Arab and Muslim world. What authority are you speaking of? The Arab League? An Islamic Congress of some sort? I'm not sure either speaks legitimately for anyone.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Weis on
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Connie,
Your answer to my questions aren't based on anything empirical (from evidence or observation). You stated "common sense" for your answer. And you relate Israel to a "dream".
Some of my questions can only answered from the study of historians and related fields. But you only trust your "common sense", a very odd way to determining facts and the way the world works.
Also, a part of your answer is about how the Arab world knows how things should run. Is the fact that almost all of the Arab regimes are authoritarian and undemocratic bother you at all? You say that Israel thinks and tries to behave like its in Europe. That is probably a good thing. Today, Europe is very democratic and liberal. -
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Permalink Reply by Ohad Bracha on
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just wanted to add that to the discussion on Zionism:
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/about/aims/
pretty much sums up my Zionists believes regarding the Israeli Palestinian conflict...
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Permalink Reply by mika laiho on -
I think that today, zionism reflects more like a individual view how person or group of peoples see zionism. To some, its purely nationalistic. To some, its more religious perspective. I guess its up to from who you ask, and you might get as many answers.
And i have highly regarded gush shalom many years ;)
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Permalink Reply by Ohad Bracha on
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Hi Mika
this little manifesto of gush shalom is the mainstream opinion in Israel today and I'm pretty sure that also in the western world. (onlyt in Israel poeple "buy" it better when some one like Peres talks about it ,basically saying the same things just in a militantly voice
for me zionism today after we have Israel is about making Israel better , I am very active in promoting the Israeli art , promoting green politics in Israel , better public transportation , and social democratic economy all part of my zionism. the Palestinian Israeli conflict is only one aspect .
zionism is always about nationalism in Israel. the religious zionism groups like mafdal that used to be part of the left wing in Israel and now are the hard core of the settlement movement and the right wing. are a sub group of zionism and that is why they identify themselves as religious zionism .
I am sure you know all of that but I notice that many others in the world and on this site does not .
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Permalink Reply by Ohad Bracha on
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http://blogs.forward.com/jj-goldberg/123677/
P.S Chomsky confused some non ati Israel personals ...
more and more Chomsky is becoming my true political guide
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