Where is the conflict?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Neri Bar-On on October 15, 2010 at 8:17am

source: http://www.facebook.com/notes/crepeace/crepeace-12/122781337754792


Neri: I have much to say about the 'conflict map' you referred to, though I see it slightly differently. I would suggest that the elements you have described regarding the 'conflict map' are on the surface. On the face of it there are Jews and Arabs, okay? There are Muslims and Jews with different beliefs who apparently fight. But what is really happening when we consider peace - there will still be Jews and Muslims here. The conflict is not between Jews and Muslims. The conflict is about something else.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs510.ash1/30092_132250..."/>

Neri Bar-On & Constantin Grossman


What is happening is that those who cause the conflict, use the Muslim identity and the Jewish identity to promote, or activate it. This is a point which very many people overlook. But especially now, in a time when we are in early stages of the "Proximity Talks", it is very important to notice that the conflict is at home and not external. The conflict between Israelis and Palestinians is due to the fact that there is a conflict within Israel and a conflict within Palestine.

Neri: When we meet with our friends and sit together at Peace Cafe and such other events, we sit with people who do not have a conflict ... we know they are in pain; we know it is difficult for them; that we need security; that the conflict is complex; but in reality there is no conflict ... and all of us want to come to a situation of peace. But, when these guys are coming back home, (and) when we meet with the people from the settlements, then the conflict arises. Because in the settler's eyes we are traitors. We give away our fathers' lands to another. And in the Palestinians eyes, those who sit with us are are also traitors because they talked with Israelis and agreed to Israeli existence whilst it was their land which was stolen. The conflict is within these two societies.

Neri: And what we are seeing today, is the fact that whenever there is an attempt to come closer to peace, internal struggles turn out to be increasingly difficult. When the Americans arrive here for proximity peace talks, there will be always someone to tell of sites being built in Jerusalem ...



Kosta: I'm sorry. This is exactly what bothers me - this is the problem. The conflict is so complex with so very many factors, and as soon as you start talking about the conflict you get into such a great deal of information, so many points of view, that when one observes this, thinking about one thing without knowing about something else, this is how chaos is created ... this is how it works.

Neri: If we attempt to summarize the conflict and its complexity, we can see that it has very many related factors. But if we want to get to its root, what causes it, the causes are internal in each of these societies; they are not between Israelis and Palestinians. but they are within Israel and within Palestine. This is because there are two political groups in Israel fighting for dominance. And because in Palestine there are two groups fighting for political dominance. Their internal struggle for political dominance feeds the conflict and each one of the parameters that comes to the surface, becomes in fact an assault weapon used at home against its own group. This element is important.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs530.snc3/30092_132251..."/>

Neri Bar-On


Kosta: This is not surprising! We have reached what can be described as extremists. We have reached (a point) in this continuous war - there is a saying in Russian which means standing firmly opposite.

Neri: Opposition.

Costa: Not opposition.

Neri: You entrench your feet in the ground and don't budge ...

Kosta: Right. You move and in front of you stands the other side who does not move. And the question is what do we do? How do we define the source of the moderates? There are moderates. What are the moderates? What characterize them? And what are extremists? What characterize them?

Neri: This is a very important question. You are in fact asking what are we doing? We have, in fact, in each society - both in the Israeli and the Palestinian - extremists and moderates. And if we look carefully, who does the extremists attack? They attack the moderates. That is, if someone says: "It is possible to create a Palestinian State", they say to him: " You are giving away lands for the Arabs". If someone says: "It is possible to recognize the Israeli State", they say to him: "You recognize the Zionists who stole our lands". What is happening is that the extremists from both sides, both the extremists of the 'Right' and the 'Left', are in fact collaborating against the moderate understanding - the only one capable of bringing about peace. It is not the 'Right' which can bring about peace, nor the 'Left'; it is the moderates who can bring about peace. Those who understand both the perspective of the non-extreme 'Right' - who say: "This is the only state for the Jews; it is very important to us; we cannot give it away; we cannot endanger it", and also understand the approach of the 'Left' (who say): "We are human beings here and we cannot govern another nation..." okay? Same thing with the Palestinian side. Those who understand, (say): "Okay, something terrible happened in the Naqba, indeed it happened, but now we must build our capabilities to establish a National Palestinian State, and do it now." These moderate voices are the ones who can bring about peace. But they are being continuously attacked by the extremists. That is why one of the things we must find out is a way to silence the extremists. To say: "Enough is enough!" Because as long as we give them license to act in the name of 'freedom of speech' and such like, they will not stop because they believe in what they do.

Anyone who becomes a settler and fights the Arabs and thinks they are going to leave to Arab countries, believes it is the right thing to do. When he sees us doing whatever it is we are doing, for him we are traitors.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs530.snc3/30092_132251..."/>

Tel Aviv


Kosta: Faith. Here we touch upon a very critical point in the name of faith. What characterizes the extremists' (view) is a fanatic faith in their just cause. A fanatic faith which does not have a base in reality ... a faith perception which is impossible to criticize because it is built upon a belief, upon what they believe ... an irrational belief ... this is not a simple thing.

Neri: But let us not make it more extreme ... let's not turn them into - - - - ?. Okay? Let us try to describe the extremist's state of being. The extremist human being has a particular world view from which he acts. This world view, in a specific context translates into: "We must throw the Arabs out of this country; this is our country and we wish to restore David's Kingdom." The person who believes in this, will still be in a position where he accepts what his Rabbi days. If we can reach the Rabbi, who is a wise man and responsible, and understanding, and who is able to see that a certain approach can bring about a terrible disaster, we can then help the leadership of what we call the 'Right', to collaborate with the centre. Because our need to bring about peace is critical. Because Israel cannot live forever on its sword. We don't want it. That is why one of the ways is to understand that when a human being acts in an extreme way, he has a particular outlook. And this particular outlook, is - - - for us - - -

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Permalink Reply by Neri Bar-On on October 17, 2010 at 3:00pm

Neri: I have much to say about the 'conflict map' you referred to, though I see it slightly differently. I would suggest that the elements you have described regarding the 'conflict map' are on the surface. On the face of it there are Jews and Arabs, okay? There are Muslims and Jews with different beliefs who apparently fight. But what is really happening when we consider peace - there will still be Jews and Muslims here. The conflict is not between Jews and Muslims. The conflict is about something else.

Neri Bar-On & Constantin Grossman


What is happening is that those who cause the conflict, use the Muslim identity and the Jewish identity to promote, or activate it. This is a point which very many people overlook. But especially now, in a time when we are in early stages of the "Proximity Talks", it is very important to notice that the conflict is at home and not external. The conflict between Israelis and Palestinians is due to the fact that there is a conflict within Israel and a conflict within Palestine.

Neri: When we meet with our friends and sit together at Peace Cafe and such other events, we sit with people who do not have a conflict ... we know they are in pain; we know it is difficult for them; that we need security; that the conflict is complex; but in reality there is no conflict ... and all of us want to come to a situation of peace. But, when these guys are coming back home, (and) when we meet with the people from the settlements, then the conflict arises. Because in the settler's eyes we are traitors. We give away our fathers' lands to another. And in the Palestinians eyes, those who sit with us are are also traitors because they talked with Israelis and agreed to Israeli existence whilst it was their land which was stolen. The conflict is within these two societies.

Neri: And what we are seeing today, is the fact that whenever there is an attempt to come closer to peace, internal struggles turn out to be increasingly difficult. When the Americans arrive here for proximity peace talks, there will be always someone to tell of sites being built in Jerusalem ...



Kosta: I'm sorry. This is exactly what bothers me - this is the problem. The conflict is so complex with so very many factors, and as soon as you start talking about the conflict you get into such a great deal of information, so many points of view, that when one observes this, thinking about one thing without knowing about something else, this is how chaos is created ... this is how it works.

Neri: If we attempt to summarize the conflict and its complexity, we can see that it has very many related factors. But if we want to get to its root, what causes it, the causes are internal in each of these societies; they are not between Israelis and Palestinians. but they are within Israel and within Palestine. This is because there are two political groups in Israel fighting for dominance. And because in Palestine there are two groups fighting for political dominance. Their internal struggle for political dominance feeds the conflict and each one of the parameters that comes to the surface, becomes in fact an assault weapon used at home against its own group. This element is important.

Neri Bar-On


Kosta: This is not surprising! We have reached what can be described as extremists. We have reached (a point) in this continuous war - there is a saying in Russian which means standing firmly opposite.

Neri: Opposition.

Costa: Not opposition.

Neri: You entrench your feet in the ground and don't budge ...

Kosta: Right. You move and in front of you stands the other side who does not move. And the question is what do we do? How do we define the source of the moderates? There are moderates. What are the moderates? What characterize them? And what are extremists? What characterize them?

Neri: This is a very important question. You are in fact asking what are we doing? We have, in fact, in each society - both in the Israeli and the Palestinian - extremists and moderates. And if we look carefully, who does the extremists attack? They attack the moderates. That is, if someone says: "It is possible to create a Palestinian State", they say to him: " You are giving away lands for the Arabs". If someone says: "It is possible to recognize the Israeli State", they say to him: "You recognize the Zionists who stole our lands". What is happening is that the extremists from both sides, both the extremists of the 'Right' and the 'Left', are in fact collaborating against the moderate understanding - the only one capable of bringing about peace. It is not the 'Right' which can bring about peace, nor the 'Left'; it is the moderates who can bring about peace. Those who understand both the perspective of the non-extreme 'Right' - who say: "This is the only state for the Jews; it is very important to us; we cannot give it away; we cannot endanger it", and also understand the approach of the 'Left' (who say): "We are human beings here and we cannot govern another nation..." okay? Same thing with the Palestinian side. Those who understand, (say): "Okay, something terrible happened in the Naqba, indeed it happened, but now we must build our capabilities to establish a National Palestinian State, and do it now." These moderate voices are the ones who can bring about peace. But they are being continuously attacked by the extremists. That is why one of the things we must find out is a way to silence the extremists. To say: "Enough is enough!" Because as long as we give them license to act in the name of 'freedom of speech' and such like, they will not stop because they believe in what they do.

Anyone who becomes a settler and fights the Arabs and thinks they are going to leave to Arab countries, believes it is the right thing to do. When he sees us doing whatever it is we are doing, for him we are traitors.

Tel Aviv


Kosta: Faith. Here we touch upon a very critical point in the name of faith. What characterizes the extremists' (view) is a fanatic faith in their just cause. A fanatic faith which does not have a base in reality ... a faith perception which is impossible to criticize because it is built upon a belief, upon what they believe ... an irrational belief ... this is not a simple thing.

Neri: But let us not make it more extreme ... let's not turn them into - - - - ?. Okay? Let us try to describe the extremist's state of being. The extremist human being has a particular world view from which he acts. This world view, in a specific context translates into: "We must throw the Arabs out of this country; this is our country and we wish to restore David's Kingdom." The person who believes in this, will still be in a position where he accepts what his Rabbi days. If we can reach the Rabbi, who is a wise man and responsible, and understanding, and who is able to see that a certain approach can bring about a terrible disaster, we can then help the leadership of what we call the 'Right', to collaborate with the centre. Because our need to bring about peace is critical. Because Israel cannot live forever on its sword. We don't want it. That is why one of the ways is to understand that when a human being acts in an extreme way, he has a particular outlook. And this particular outlook, is - - - for us - - -

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