Whose is "real" here on mepeace? Who has integrity and who does not?

Comment

Comment by Hadi Al Bahra on April 1, 2009 at 3:12am

I think that Max has diagnosed the problem about discussions on this website correctly, and I agree with him completely, as I have seen many of the specific issues discussions posted here (including this one), branching out to completely different subjects and non related issues. I think that should avoided as much as possible by creating more discussions within a specific group of people which in my opinion could reach to more understandings, results, resolutions, or proposals , that we all could be enlightened with.

Comment by Basil Keilani on March 28, 2009 at 7:57am

Max, when I was referring to the Nuremberg trials, some Nazis brought up the argument of no prior sovereignty in some areas that fell under Nazi control. Israel brings up that argument to try to say that the Geneva Convention does not apply. I did say earlier in a discussion you were in that Nazi defendants brought a similar agreement about no prior sovereignty in their trials and their defense was rejected.

"…

"In a number of the post-World War II war crimes trials conducted by the Western Allies, Nazi defendants employed elaborate arguments, including questioning the title to 'occupied territory', to avoid the application of the then effective customary and conventional international humanitarian law as criteria for judging the criminality or innocence of their conduct. Although these arguments were rejected by the war crimes tribunals, the four Geneva Conventions of 1949 were written in careful language so as to avoid the possibility of raising these defenses again. The common article 2 of all four Conventions provides that the Conventions, 'Shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise... even if the state of war is not recognized...

"The same article also provides that the Convention shall also apply to 'all' situations 'of partial or total occupation of the territory of a high contracting party...

"The Conventions are thereby applied to the facts of international conflict, and the lack of a declaration of war is irrelevant. The Conventions also provide no basis for a 'just war' theory which would deprive an alleged aggressor of the benefits of the law while saving those benefits for an alleged defender. In the same way, the negotiating history makes it clear, since the application of the Conventions is mandatory, that questions as to de jure titles to territory are not involved and that the Convention must be applied in occupied territory whatever the claims concerning the de jure status of that territory

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/b987b5db9bee37bf85256d0a00549525/ceee0a514875a47085256d65007b36c9!OpenDocument

Comment by Max S on March 26, 2009 at 3:56pm

Rivka:

now, now, my dear...

:-)

Comment by Max S on March 26, 2009 at 3:55pm

Hi Basil. I can not infer as much as you can from what people write but I shall take what you say at face value on that front. It would appear we agree about what the limits of internet communication are and probably share similar views on it's strenghts.

Can you expand a little on the legal argument. I am a mathematics student, I never read law neither could I, so it isn't clear to me what your point was. Analogies, South Africa or Germany, are not seriously important in the formation of a legal ruling are they? What about the argument of self-defence? Cannot both Palestiians and Israeli argue this position? Start a new discussion if you like. My apologies if I sound pig ignorant but the truth is, on this subject alone I am. I am also very skeptical of it. As far as I am aware it was illegal to go into Kosovo. Well, sod International Law. What happened in Bosnia could not be repeated.

I agree with you about the Med. Northern Europe has its charm as well mind you. As long as you can take the cold. If you have spent time in Canada I guess you can. One things I cannot deal with here is the heat.

Comment by Rivka on March 26, 2009 at 1:26pm

sorry I think I misunderstood Max's comment - take it all back - no certified kosher certificates!

Comment by Rivka on March 26, 2009 at 12:26pm

The food from the Puglia region of Italy is also very good - exquiite!

Comment by Rivka on March 26, 2009 at 12:21pm

btw: just for the record. I am not offended now - I am just being direct. Max- you should be used to by now in Israel - nahon? We should remember that it is difficult sometmes to gauge peoples' mood from their writing, which is why I like to skype -phone mepeacers (or mewarers - as Basil might call them)

Comment by Basil Keilani on March 26, 2009 at 12:18pm

I agree with the vast majority of what you wrote. When I referred to the Nuremberg trials, I think that's valid when dealing with international law. I brought that up in a discussion with Mick regarding Article 49 of the Geneva Convention. I did bring up the fact that certain Nazi officers brought up certain arguments that stated the Geneva Convention did not apply because of the no prior sovereignty agreement, but the court ruled against them. Thus, we have stare decisis at play or legal precedent. If someone states it's unfortunate that the Jews who suffered from German ethnic cleansing would have it done to the Palestinians, it doesn't mean they are being hateful. However, if you general Zionists and use terms such as Zionazis or what have you, then it's a problem. As far as South Africa, people do make comparisons including legal scholars. However, on a place like mepeace simply using labels and comparisons over and over with the apartheid regime will not facilitate dialogue, it would simply lead the forum to be a platform for someone trying to be very self-righteous and preach about the sins of the other with the website being the equivalent of a pulpit. I do think Palestinian or Israeli posters on here should avoid self-righteous talk. If you bring up Mazin, then I would have to bring up Israeli or Jewish posters as well, but I want to avoid that. True, I brought up Samir, but he is neither Israeli, Jewish, Palestinian or looking to contribute to any kind of dialogue, obviously, except of that between the deaf and the dumb.

I could tell where someone is from sometimes or suspect them based on how they write and what they say, and if you are an Arab something in your speech should eventually come out showing your ties whether through what dialogue you speak or know and what places you've seen, been to.... If you have to hide such things (religion is one thing to keep private), but can't relate to anything on the political scene in your country of origin or something that shows a connection, then it raises question marks in my mind, at least. People who say over and over that they're Arabs don't really impress me. Why do you need to repeat that as a mantra. Sunshine and Samir both did that for some reason. It was funny when Samir said, "As an Arab and and upstanding American" or something of that nature.
It's comical. It's as if he was trying to make himself out to be an authority.

I love the food of Lebanon, Syria, Palestine. I love Turkey, I love Greece. They are all great places. I like the Eastern and Western Mediterranean. I am not in a hurry to go down there. I have relatives, I should see them. They're family, but I would like to go to a more peaceful area far from the clutches of war and the different forms of ideological atavistic thinking. I am sure I will visit. Who knows when peace will arrive. We just have to believe in it and keep the faith....

I believe you have a loved one down there. That's a good reason to be there. As for me, I don't have a girlfriend down there, I have ancestral ties and a connection to my relatives.

Comment by Rivka on March 26, 2009 at 12:12pm

Hey guys - aka "dudes": I don't think one can go round validating or invalidating how others feel. One has to respect, and this is very very difficult, how others feel and think as long as this is being expressed sincerely.

Re comparisons with Naziism: I said there was a difference between ethnic cleansing, which is Israel is carrying out (and which has also being carried out by some arab countries - not that two rights ever make a wrong) and genocide.

It's like Max is going round affixing his own personal certified kosher certificate to other peoples' sentiments.
Anyway - I suggest you ask Rivka how offended she is and what she thinks exactly rather than attributing stuff to her!
We are all cutting our teeth on this peace stuff - there are very few of us who infallible and I am happy to stand up and be counted as...............imperfect.
Peace and loads of love

Comment by Max S on March 26, 2009 at 10:29am

I am not sure what you are trying to say about Nazi comparisons. What are you referring to when you wrote about the Nuremberg Trials? Generally speaking I think the whole issue of Nazism and its impact upon the Jewish people and by consequence the Palestinian people should be avoided. A website, where we are all to a certain extent anonymous, is not a suitable medium to discuss such charged subjects. Furthermore, far too many debates on the Middle East, especially ones on websites like these, become contracted debates about the precise meaning of terms. More often than not people fail to recognise that English is a great language for turning nouns into adjectives. ‘Apartheid wall’ is one such example as is ‘Islam is medieval’. Medievalism is a vast subject, what are people like Samir referring to? Thabit? Musa ibn Shakir? The thinking of those two Mathematicians is sound and you will find it Euclid and Newton. 7th Century thinking, if such a phrase has any meaning, is quite different to that of today and any comparison is just intellectually lazy.

It is important to recognize the difference between a debate and a slagging match. Personally, I am of the disposition that when sober I prefer the former and when drunk a passionate advocate of the latter. Slagging matches are rich in the misuse of nouns as adjectives and there is little point in replying with reason to such pronouncements, it is granting credibility when ridicule is due. If people want to shoot themselves in the foot they can go for it as far as I am concerned. I do it all the time and nothing encourages me more than a voice of reason. Discussions on mepeace have few if any guidelines so you can start a discussion upon a subject that is little more than a declaration of sectarianism and the career off topic to subjects such as ‘who the **** is this sunshine person’. In other cases it is not so simple and when topics such as the Holocaust or the Naqba are brought to the fore it is an invitation to disaster, sensitive subjects in careless hands spells trouble. There is no way a website like mepeace can be regulated. We can only rely on self restraint, a poor substitute for adequate controls. The consequence of this is that you will have discussions (slagging matches) such as that between Mazin and Samir. Eva’s debate was engineered to create friction and Mazin and Samir approached it with a do or die attitude, writing short reply that did not reciprocate each others posts. I suspect neither of them could ever admit defeat in an argument of that nature. Who would? Once you’ve fired the first shot it is fun to carry on shooting. Personally, I can’t be bothered with such affairs at least in cyberspace. Discussions like those always have little material to go on, expand rapidly, as the posts grow shorter and coarser, the bold function used with abandon. If Eyal and others tried to regulate such affairs they would fail. It would be like legislating against self-loathing, it is in us all to a certain extent.

Well, I am going off topic now. We were supposed to be discussing who is ‘real’ here in cyberspace. In my view you can never really answer that question so it is not worth asking, with all due respect to Stephanie. Thinking of the difficulties that Palestinians and Israelis have in accepting each other histories, let alone how they are intrinsically related (as is there future) reminds me of a concert I read of today where young Palestinian musicians played to Holocaust survivors.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1073846.html

You should visit the region before peace arrives. I use to think like that, I am glad I changed my mind.

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