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What is your wildest utopian dream about Israel/Palestine? What is the very best outcome you can imagine, your most hopeful and beautiful vision, for all the peoples of that land - say, in 100 years from now, or however long (or soon) you like. Please don't be limited by what you think is, or is not, actually possible to accomplish. Be as unrealistic as you dare!

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Funny, I didn't realize all those people who died in pogroms and during the Holocaust survived.
That is precisely what I believe that I am doing John.

Is Justice always possible?

Is your perception of Justice the same as mine?

==PmR
Hi Mazin,

Yep: "Justice, justice you shall seek!" Has that chant not caused to many wars?

Israel Is now the very imperfect State of the Jewish people and it is NOT the Jewish Faith. In the same way as States populated by people whose predominant faith is Christianity or Islam are NOT shining examples of either the Islamic or Christian faiths That is not an apology or justification of anything; simply something I see as fact.

Why demand ONLY of the State of the Jews that which no other State really does?

==PmR
And yes.
Mazin,
It's 'Tzedek tzedek tirdof,' right?

Tzedek is not as close to "justice" (which is more like "mishpat")
as to "righteousness" (as in "Tzedakah").
And "tirdof" comes from "rodef." The strong "Chase after." Which is more like the vigorous
"chase after" than the semi-detached "pursue," or the the wistful "seek."

Meaning, as far as that goes, I agree even more than you say...
Dear Hayyim:

I do not know if others noticed this too but when you open discussion on any forum here on mepeace, some individuals who are clearly politically driven feel obliged to try to score points and not really learn or grow as individuals. Ana and Seth are examples. I looked over other fora here were they posted. I found no evidence of any personal revelations, new insights, evolution in thinking or even basic curiousity to understand. It is merely trying to "hit" at the people they identify as part of "the other" (the gentiles that do not agree with them?). I find this rather sad and self-defeating because we are all mature adults who can see through that. And why waste time if we are not going to learn something new? I am not interested in winning an argument here. My book was attacked by some Palestinain nationalists for being post-nationalist and was attacked by political Zionists in the same way they attacked Einstein and Martin Buber decades ago for saying the obvious (that segregation and us here, them there do not work). But I know others read my book and writings as they did with other HUMAN BEINGS with an open heart and mind (I emphasize human being because obviously we are one people not many "peoples" who must eternally duke it out). I ask those interested here to read my book and other writings and maybe then we can get into a real meaningful discussion. But if they can't read it with an open mind because I am not part of the "chosen tribe", then perhaps they should read great Jewish wrtings from Tanya Reinhart, Ilan Pappe, Gideon Levy, Jeff Halper, Sigmond Freud, and thousands of others.

I do not think a meaningful discussion with people like Hayyim or others who really want it can happen via back and forth on this forum but face to face. This forum maybe helped us get to meet each other but I really do not think it is productive for our time to do this (especially to be responding to people who obviously had their mind made-up a long time ago and who do not want to be confused with the facts).

Peace
Mazin Qumsiyeh
Dear Mazin,

I read and like your work, I hope to read you more.
I know that some of the participants are not "investigating" and they "promote" their ideas and attack other ideas without looking into them just because it needs effort to listen to the other man.

we clearly need better conversation culture for integrating the see of ideas that are needed to manifest change.
Thanks Neri and John and all:

I am just overwhelmed with projects and things to act on that it is hard for me to engage on fora like this or the Woolman college forum. I think they maybe important for initial contact but later should move to a actual meetings and actions for peace. That is what happened to me and John: we met in virtual space and then moved on to meetings and actions on the ground. I ended up visiting Vermont a few times while living in the US and made some great progress in peace making through networking. My direct email is qumsi001 at hotmail.com and I would love to hear off the forum from people who want to pursue these things. I am also now seriously thinking of developing a forum for planning actions by people who support the one state solutions (Israelis, Palestinians, and others). I would be curious to hear what people think of the idea of such a forum for people who are like minded to begin to articulate actions to outreach for people who are not yet convinced that the two state solution is dead.

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