The above statement was made by Elaine Friedland in the context of another discussion. I think it is actually a very important subject to discuss especially by Jewish members of Mepeace. But also by others. Do we also say that Muslims require a Muslim state in order to be free? How about Christians, Bahai, Hindus, Budhists, Animists, Gypsies, Atheists, Homosexuals, etc? What is the definition of "Jewish" in Jewish state? Is it observing Halacha laws? How much Jewish is enough "Jewish"? Who is Jewish? If anti-Zionist Jews becaome a majority in Israel, would it be a "Jewish state"? But the most significant thing is do Jews really require a Jewish state "in order to be free"? Are US Jews not free?

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PS and if this statement is what Zionists believe, then I do not see why we cannot discuss the belief of Zionists.
Elaine, is it me you are referring to, and accusing of Jew hatred? It is lucky for you I do not take offence at foolish comments.

‘Zionism’ is a political movement, and to oppose Zionism is to oppose a political ideology. To suggest such opposition constitutes Jew-hate is nothing short of a perversion of the legitimate meaning. Look up any reputable encyclopedia if you are having problems understanding what I have said. You will see my assessment of the definition is 100% correct.

BTW my family has close connections with their Jewish neighbours, and these connections date back more than 45 years. We like nothing better than to meet and find out what has been happening with our respective families.

Elaine, you should pay more attention to the threads flowing through mepeace, and then, you would know of my position in relation to the Jewish neighbours of my childhood.
Carol, Jews in Australia were free before Israel came into existence. They are protected by our legal system. There is something very suspect about any nation that is reliant on demographics in order to be free. The unspoken statement here is that the minority will not be free, will not be protected. This is not what democracy is about. What are you advocating? A return to tribalism? Are you suggesting you would accept some form of Fascism?

If a Mexican moves to Australia and applies for citizenship, he will become an Australian citizen, just like all the Jews who came before him. There is nothing wrong with this. It is the essence of a democracy. Would you give me citizenship if I moved to Israel? What about Abed? He already lives there, and he would dearly love to have citizenship.
Christine states that Jews have freedom in Australia and their freedoms are protected by laws. This is a fact. Carol responds with hyperbolic statements about well they are free now but "the tide could change". Well the past 100 years showed the tide did not change in Australia but the tide did change in Palestine. Ethnic cleansing, violence, oppression, terrorism, colonialism, racism all growing like mushrooms in the garden that was fertilized with political Zionist mythology.

I also want to say that "Never again" for many of us meant it: never again for any people should they be treated like that. For Zionists, it meant never again only to Jews and only to Jews who live like we want them to live (segregated in their own nation-state built on the ruins of native Palestinians). History has already shown that the Zionist flawed version of "Never again" did not work and will not work because it carries within it seeds of oppression and dispossession, anger and wars.
This is just baloney, Mazin.

"Ethnic cleansing, violence, oppression, terrorism, colonialism, racism all growing like mushrooms in the garden that was fertilized with political Zionist mythology."

Maybe poetical, but still baloney. You are posting on the website of an Israeli Zionist. If all those things are growing like mushroooms in the Zionnist garden, so are roses of coexistence, lilies of health provision, and tulips of education. For those willing to work within the system, willing to live with the Zionists as friends, wiling to accept the concept of equality for Israelis as well as Arabs.

I humbly suggest that repeating the same cliches over and over again will get you nowhere with the 'other' side.
Though some very wrongheaded cultural relativists, and your own choir, might support you for it...
You state "wiling to accept the concept of equality for Israelis as well as Arabs" (Palestinian is the right term here since the struggle is not between those who speak Arabic and Israelis). Now Can you show me how the political Zionist movement is willing to do that? Show me one political Zionist who recognizes the injustice of saying Palestinian refugees can't return to their homes and lands while any Jew in the world (including converts) can come live on that land. How is that equality. Please enlighten me.
Let's not parse words on side-issues, Mazin?
(For over 30 years it was generally called the Arab-Israeli conflict. And it will remains so in essence even if not in labels, as long as Palestinians identify themselves as Arabs and as part of the Arab nation.)

'Can I show you how the political Zionist movement is willing to do that?'
I can do better.
I will show you how the Israeli political establishment is already doing that!
(Do you consider Arab Israelis to be Palestinians?)
The fact that there are Arabs in the Israeli Zionist Knesset is one of the ways. The fact that "Matnasim" are built in Israeli-Palestinian (Arab-Israeli is just less confusing) towns just as in Israeli-Jewish towns is another. The fact that roadsigns are in Arabic as well as Hebrew. The fact that most of the roadsigns leading to Jerusalem even say "Urusalim Al Quds" in Arabic. The fact that Yuli Tamir inserted teaching about the Naqba into Israeli students' curriculum is another. The fact that at Givat Haviva Arabs help to teach about the Arab culture to IDF soldiers as part of their training is another. The fact that there are Arabs in the IDF, and Israeli police, and Israeli universities, and that half of those treated at Hadassah Ein Kerem hospital are Palestinians or Arab Israelis. And a lot of the treating doctors are also Arabs. And that about a third of the students at Tel Aviv University are Arabs. The Arab towns of Umm al Fahm and Sakhnin and the Arab students in Jaffa all had better bagrut completion rates than the Jewish town of Kiryat Malachi (they all stink, but stink together).

How long should I go on?
Yossi Beilin and Yossi Sarid. You must have heard of them. They say it frequently.
Do journalists count as part of the political establishment? Amira Hass and Gideon Levy and Akiva Eldar advocate for Arab equality constantly. Shatil, B'Tselem, Shalom Achshav, Adalah, Zochrot, the Bereaved Femilies Circle - they and a hundred organizations like them are part of the Israeli political establishment.

As for "Show me one political Zionist who recognizes the injustice of saying Palestinian refugees can't return to their homes and lands while any Jew in the world (including converts) can come live on that land."

Spend just 5 minutes researching on Haaretz, and you'll find what your'e looking for.
You said that "For over 30 years it was generally called the Arab-Israeli conflict. And it will remains so in essence even if not in labels, as long as Palestinians identify themselves as Arabs and as part of the Arab nation"

That is simply not true. That is generally the Zionist framing of it but not how most Palestinians or even most Arabs frame it.

SOME Palestinians do identify with Pan Arab Nationalism but that is a minority now (got 2% in the west bank and gaza elections, maybe they are 5-7% overall, DFLP and PFLP positions).
MORE Palestinians (around 20%) identify with Pan Islamic nationalism
Some 30% of Palestinians in the WB & Gaza identify with Palestinian nationalism only.
Others like me identify with humanity.

BTW, Israelis who speak Arabic are indeed Palestinians. The Oslo process tried to destroy that connection but any deeper conversations between people who remain in the parts of Palestine that became Israel will reveal that their attitudes and self-dientity remains similar to their relatives who became refugees or to those Palestinians in the WB & G who are not refugees.

As for Haaretz Zionists, I would love to see even a single editorial that supports the Internationally recognized rights of refugees to return. I have been eagerly searching.
The idea that Israel is (or can be) like France (or England) is such a flawed concept that I am surprised political Zionists kept repeating it for the past 120 years. Unfortunately such delusions were also common among some White South Africans during apartheid era when they just said "we are a democracy" and why can't we be Afrikaaner in our own country just like the English in England or the French in France. The problem is that French and and English were not living on top of another people's land. Here we have Israel and Palestine, one and teh dame place. Palestinians are refugees or live in shrinking Bantustans (ala South Africa during apartheid). Ignoring all of this and just wishing it away will not solve the dilemma.
Elaine wrote: "This false assumption, derived from Islamic prejudice against the Jewish people, continues to be basis of Palestinian nationalism."

You are here making racist statements and then "projecting" on others with generalizations about "Islamic prejudice" against "the Jewish people". Abu Lughod was a historian (a secular and nonreligiosu one) who was speaking about a specific period in our history when indeed many Palestinians (disastrously and incorrectly) though of the enemy they were fighting (who happen to be Jews, not "the Jewish people") were less courageous than they are. The fact is Jews who were fighting also thought of their Arab enemies as cowards. That is natural in these conflicts (whether due to bravado, denigrading of your enemy etc). What does one call attempts to make hateful generalization above about Islam ("Islamic prejudice") and Palestinian nationalism. Is it ignorance or bigotry or both? Or is it just sad attempts at derailing a serious and meaningful discussion about the essence of the problem here that led us to five wars and countless lives devastated?
Mazin, that is not racism.
It has nothing to do with race. It has to do with the behavior of a religious group.
Unfortunately for us Jews, some Muslims happened to create discriminatory laws to regulate the conduct of Jews and Christians in their societies, and others of later generations took those to be "Islamic tradition."
That is exactly what Fatah said in 1968.
'The fundamental Islamic position that Jews be tolerated as a subordinated minority.'
Your refusal to recognize and deal with this, and calling Elaine's referring to it "racist;"
not Elaine's noticing it, is real the sad attempt to derail a serious discussion....

But instead of recognizing that all human societies (including America) have such problem of being "protective" to call racism in a more easy name. This is part in all human societies and Jews as Muslims societies have "racism" in them. showing this prove nothing as there are higher values that we all recognize the reject racism and call all of us to recognize we are one race.

Elaine's say that there is false in Islamic prejudice against the Jewish people. she does not say - some Muslim show prejudice against the Jewish people.

from this kind of statement, Elaine may be one who has prejudice against the Muslim people this does not say that all Jews are prejudice against all of the Muslim people

I hope we can recognize that too.



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