The above statement was made by Elaine Friedland in the context of another discussion. I think it is actually a very important subject to discuss especially by Jewish members of Mepeace. But also by others. Do we also say that Muslims require a Muslim state in order to be free? How about Christians, Bahai, Hindus, Budhists, Animists, Gypsies, Atheists, Homosexuals, etc? What is the definition of "Jewish" in Jewish state? Is it observing Halacha laws? How much Jewish is enough "Jewish"? Who is Jewish? If anti-Zionist Jews becaome a majority in Israel, would it be a "Jewish state"? But the most significant thing is do Jews really require a Jewish state "in order to be free"? Are US Jews not free?

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You are exactly right Jafra.

And the way Palestinians can support that shift is simply by taking your position re: 'radical democracy/Republicanism,' and following your objective attitude to coexistence. The rest will follow. Then we see how much we have to really learn from each other, and the floodgates of progress will be smashed open....
I think you called it a coronation?
We need a slogan for this vision.

like : "Jerusalem; the gate for world peace"
Peace? or something more? "Liberty" maybe?

(Just to explore your ideas, though:

Isn't a slogan just another kind of a label?)
'Lets imagine Zionists came to Palestine to co-exists without any false prejudice they had (meanly because of anti-Semitism experience and trauma, Palestinian had nothing to do with) about indigenous inhabitance. If they would have build their kibbutz's without fences.."

When Zionists first arrived in Palestine many of them did want to coexist. Granted many Zionists did believe they were coming to a land without a people but there was always a vocal minority that recognized the rights of those already living there and strongly demanded that the rest of the Zionist movement do so as well. Even Ben Gurion spoke about a binational state, though this may have very well been political posturing. The whole idea of transfer didn't even come up until after the 1929 riots.

I personally believe that conflict was inevitable. The Zionists were in a desperate situation and focused so much on their own suffering that they forgot about the suffering they were causing others. Furthermore, I don' t think that Palestinians would have wanted to live in a country where they were outnumbered. There was a guy named Fauzi Al-Husseini who worked with Martin Buber for a binational solution but he was murdered for being a "traitor".
"I personally believe that conflict was inevitable. "
I think also, otherwise we would not have it :) ..
both sides was re-acting according to their "knowledge" and abstraction of own reality within a "closed system". Tow groups of enemies, each group try to win on the cost of other. With this mentality foundations of total authoritative political systems raised up.
Today the situation is different. Both sides should learn from the past.
But the systems are not fast learning like human consciousness. Thats why I speak about "systems of occupations" in my discussions. They occupy their own "leaders". I am quite sure, in other boundery conditions people like Abbas or Levni will admit failure of historical evaluation. But the system does not allow to. They will be easily attacked by "their competition" and lose the next propaganda battle.

My theory any solution approach in this occupational systems will have weak influence.
The new alternative mind-map will need to have very intensive natural design based "understanding system function" and "natural disciple" of modern science and modern anthropological ideology, so that the new choice will need 0-propaganda (new behaviour architectures and learning machines)

In my eyes, Israel/Palestine challange is a fusion of the global challange dealing with the new human civilisation (post-power , post-national ear) . Any concentration of these foundation can be benchmarked on all other fields in our psych-unity.
Most early Zionists assimilated to the European notion of ethnocentric chauvenistic nation states. They were escaping those and recreating one of their own. It is like children who are abused are more likely to grow up to abuse their own children because that is what they know. But is never inevitable in both cases. People do transcend hate and violence. In looking to the future here, we must understand the past so as not to keep making the same mistakes (as human beings!!). That is why indeed an answer of creating another nationalist state in a tiny area is not a god answer IMHO but a return to the principles of human rights (it is all enunciated in the universal declaration of human rights including the rights of refugees to return to their homes and lands).
The Issue of Human Rights is complex as the Issue of National Identity.

Human Rights are a way to see how we all get the same potential for good living. It enable us to see all of us as one, but then we find that we are missing the "provider" as the same entity who we see as deserve to be Secured Human Rights is the one to provide it. So when the Israelis say that attacking civilians is act against human rights, which is the same crime if these are Jews, palestinian or Arabs (or other nations),

So if we are equal in getting Human rights, we are also equal in our responsibility to provide it.

I do think HUman Right way of thinking is in the right direction, but as we are all one human tissue and the Rights of all of us are equal but the life conditions of all of us is so different (From Gaza to Hebron to east Jerusalem to Jerusalem to Tel-Aviv) we need to recognize the we need to create new social agreement.

This is where I get back to the National State era that I think we are in its final decays. The National movements from the in France French revolution to Napoleon , In Italy from Garibaldi to the Mussolini; In Germany from Weimar to Hitler; In Israel from Hertzel to are all description of developmental stage in a process of human capacity to provide better resources to manifest the Human Rights and make these ideas available. WWII teach us a lot of where un-constrained Nationalism can get and Israel can easly find its path to as extreme results but I do not belive it will.

If you look at the modern state you can see that it deliver much more Rights to people and actually hold key element for providing such conditions. but we need not only to learn from history and correct the ways of our parents we also need to see the new phenomena as Globalism and Information high-way that provide us trans-national view and ability to relate to more complex issue.

I think the solution for the conflict need a complex strategy that include Human Rights and Civil society governance as some social-economic consideration as we do not wish to liberate the Israelis and Palestinians and 10 years down we have free but poor communities as we can see in South Africa today.
UN human right declaration does not provide the right up-to-date theory in order to do the right implementation.
There is one forgetten dimention of occupation which is the occupation of knowledge.
The humanity know much more than HR decelerations offers us. Even though the political authority gain its Lobby of old theory and standards.

One major failure that their is no human obligation in relation to their living environment.
Right and Obligation mapping to live circumstances is a complex effort, but very much doable.

The corruption of definition consume is deadly. People claim their rights, but they ignore their next obligation to their living-street community.

You can think what kind of mentality this corruption has produced.

I do not expect any quick change till we have addressed all relationships of this change.

Kant said: "Experience without theory is blind, but theory without experience is mere intellectual play"
I believe we still more blind than enlighten.
Neri want to live free in a country that protects him and lets him live without oppressing others it seems to me.
I want the same thing. What is wrong with living then in one such country that neither forces me as a Palestinian off my land not forces Jews/others to submit to Sharia or Halacha laws? Could it be that the solution stares us in the face but fears makes many act in bigotry and hate towards "the other". On another forum there was a question about those who claim to want peace but yet support violence. You cannot achieve peaceful ends by violent means. It is like raping for virginity ... it does not work. The quest for normality cannot be attained by abnormal methods (ethnic cleansing etc.). Surely there is a better answer (as Einstein, Freud, Judas Magnes, and Martin Buber all tried to tell us).
"You cannot achieve peaceful ends by violent means."

This may not always be true.
It sometimes happens that violent means are necessary to prevent even greater violence
and bring about a more stable peace in the long run.
That argument has long been disproven. We know clearly that Violence only begets violence and it generates hate and resentment that last for generations and will not produce neither peace nor "security". In any case this website is about peace and those who believe in other methods should join the appropriate website.
Here we go again. Islamic societies... It seems 1.5 billion Muslims according to Elaine only are capable of having bigoted societies.

Then for good measure Elaine adds Nazis! Go back to my posts which shoe the evidence for the Nazi-Zionist collaborations (including teh transfer agreement and the break-up of the boycott) which were far more devastating than the alleged collaborations between "Palestinian nationalism" (actually there were some gestures of potential friendship but they came to practical things like happen between Nazis and Zionists). Further, it is useful to recall the Mossad's bombings of Jewish targets in Iraq (false flag operations to scare Iraqi Jees into joining the Zionist legions in Palestine).

But please go ahead keep throwing the Islam bashing accusations... those are the gems that tell all of us how you think.



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