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Well, I wanted to bring this issue into discussion becouse i think it has great importance. since most of us are usually more optimists then the average person i thought we might come up with new ideas here. My primary thoughts is that Israel shoulde'nt avoid Hamas and instead should start working with it's represanatives first on humanitary issues in Gaza. Once a connection is established maybe we can even start talking wirh their leaders about security issues and if that goes well we might even get to political issues and start negotiating for peace. I think that by choosing that path we might distant Hamas from Iran which is a very important goal since Iran is an obstacle to the peace proccess. I personally think that Hamas might deliver on a peace treaty better than Fatah and that is why it's so important that we atleast try talking to them. Looking forward to reading your opinions.

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Well, first i want to thank you Sroor for your positive reply. You have some valid points in it and i would like to adress them. The israeli society might have problems initially to accept this idea but with the proper advertising and if it would produce results it might stick. Now, about Hamas and their public image. I agree with you that it might be a problem and that is why I'm saying we should do it step by step. By that i mean that we should start working together on solving the humanitarian problems in Gaza which i belive are very serious and the pepole in Gaza should not suffer becouse of the discommunication between Israel and Hamas. What we'll have to do is to have a system put in place to make sure the money that is transferd is not used to buy weapons and explosives and that it is indeed used for food, medicine and paycheckes.
If that process goes well and some sort of trust is built between Israeli officials and Hamas pepole, then we may proceed to discuss more serious issues like security and such. Now the reason I'm putting some faith in Hamas is becouse i see that they are trying to maintain some sort of order in Gaza and they have some success like their war aginst drugs which produced results and the fact that they are not afraid to confront the radical islamic organizations in Gaza like the "Army of Islam". I just belive that they will be able to enforce and deliver a peace agreement or cease fire agreement better then Mahmud Abass and the Fatah.
Coming from outside the Middle East it feels to me as if working together on humanitarian issues will open the hearts of those involved and lead to more communication. I understand that it's easy for me to say this - not being involved personally in any way - however, I refer you to my discussion 'Living from the Answer' posted on the front page. See where it is you want to get, feel it strongly and take the necessary steps to get there. See yourselves communicating.
With all my heart I hope the positive energy that's being generated in hyperspace will change the status quo in the Middle East.
Abundant blessings
Jane :)
So you advocate opening a dialogue with Hamas despite their refusing to recognise Israel's right to exist?

Why do you think Hamas would be a better partner for dialogue with Fatah; didn't Fatah express interest in talks with Israel?
I'll tell you why I'm suggesting opening a dialog with Hamas despite the fact that they refuse to recognize Israel.
First, Israel is a known fact, we are a state, a member of the United nations and weather Hamas will acknowladge this or not we're here to stay and no matter what they say, think or do it's not up for debate. So i'm saying i feel secure enough so i don't think that their recognizing Israel should be a deal breaker( at least not in the start of the talks but definatly a deal breaker in a formal treaty).
Second, I heard voices from Hamas officials saying that Israel is here and nothing they will do won't change it( It came from Their Spokesperson and if i'm not mistaken although i'm not sure even Haled Mashal gave a statement in that spirit). Also i'll say that once they start negotiating with us they can declare whatever they want but their actions prove otherwise becouse when you are negotiating you recognize the other side rights and status.

Now to your question about Fatah. If the Fathah organization was strong it would be ideal to negotiate with them. However it's not the case. Fatah is weak organization and it's members are precived as corrupt in the Palestinian society.
I don't belive they will be able to deliver on a peace agreement( I hope they will but i don't belive it) and i do belive that if Israel can reach an agreement with Hamas which is possible( although very difficult), Hamas will enforce the terms and deliver on the deal far better than Fatah could ever do.

Thanks for your response and i hope i clarified my position for you although we don't have to agree and i respect your view of the situation.
Eyal,

Don't you think that the Hamas structure and position at this stage cannot avoid violent acts against Israel.

When I see they continue booming the Negev I understand that they have a reason to continue/enable such acts. I think the cause of this behavior is aggressive violent component is the Hamas that combined with a Holy war idealism. This makes Hamas a hard to trust partner since they apparently act in a "Holy war" patterns that push down any "pro-peace practical" group in Hamas to gain any power. So the people we will meet at this point will not be ones who can sign agreements.

From the other side, these Hamas pro-peace practical people exist. They probably have tuff times as Gaza condition declaims. These people who are tagged "Hamas" and understand that we are seeking to merge and crate stable human tissue in the Middle East. All the agreements the politions/negotiators need to serve the higher purpose of all of us. It need to take into consideration all the what is going to happened a day after all the paper work is done. Since we are all going to live here together hopefully it could start when our children will be matured.

So my vote is to wait with the Hamas. Israel actions right now are getting to be more and more aggressive while the abilities of Hamas to maintain livelihood in Gaza decrease. I truly recognize it is a painful experience for many Palestinians, any of them is a reason to overcome this conflict. These hidden Hamas future leaders who will be able to bring these pro-peace practical thinking people to the power positions where they can influence the negotiatin interaction with israel.
Let me bring a different view on Negotiation

Dr. Beck says: “Negotiation between Israel and Palestine is premature,we have to deal with the existingasymmetry between the twocultures firstin order to get them to negotiate at the same level. Building is the Key. Habitat design is the key. Mobilizing resources, uplifting people, building new dreams and visions for them for a better tomorrow, first in Palestine alone where it is most needed.”

This is from http://www.integralisrael.org/rafinasser.htm

When addressing the question of Hamas we must recognize that Hamas is not a monolith it is a complex bond driven by "true" values that derive from a commomn worldview exist in the group. But there are sub group with different views with the group. spiral dynamics is used to separate the different layers of worldview.

Palestine and the Spiral: Until recently life conditions in Palestine established the cultural center of gravity at egocentric Red (Red:Power-Driven. Exploitative Empire. Leaders have the most power because they are stronger and tougher.
). The chronic corruption that characterized Fatah rule was an unhealthy expression of the strongman Red (Power-Driven) value system. The rallying call of the Hamas election for reform, lawfulness and accountability represents values rooted in the orderly Blue value system (Blue: Authoritarian Structure. Order-Driven. Seniority and right position in the formal structure determines who leads whom.). The unexpected Hamas victory signals a shift to a higher-level value structure in Palestinian society. But fundamentalist Blue (Blue: Authoritarian Structure. ) is an ethnocentric value system unable to rise above the religious and racial identity that gives it meaning and purpose. Authentic peace becomes possible only when the next system emerges, worldcentric Orange (Orange: Strategic Enterprise. Achievement-Driven. Those who can demonstrate success set the standard to beat and give out incentives for improvement to the winners.).


from Palestine Speaks in Colors: Unraveling the Deep Cultural Codes and ...

Level 1- Beige: Survival Sense, Staying Alive. Lives in bands and clans. Biological impulses and memories.

Level 2- Purple: Tribal Order. Safety and Security-Driven. The customary ways of the ancestors are interpreted by elders and chieftains so as to define specific roles and kinship relations.

Level 3- Red: Power-Driven. Exploitative Empire. Leaders have the most power because they are stronger and tougher.

Level 4- Blue: Authoritarian Structure. Order-Driven. Seniority and right position in the formal structure determines who leads whom.

Level 5- Orange: Strategic Enterprise. Achievement-Driven. Those who can demonstrate success set the standard to beat and give out incentives for improvement to the winners.

Level 6- Green: Social Network. People-Driven. Egalitarian. All must share equally in leadership and building consensus since no individual is better than other.

Level 7- Yellow: Systemic Flow. Process-Oriented. The work to be done leads the most competent person(s) to guide tasks and functions through use of appropriate intelligences. There is little fear and no status, power, image or emotional traps.

Level 8- Turquoise: Holistic. Everything Connects. Global reach. Lives responsible to sustain all life. Experience the wholeness of existence through mind and spirit.
When you say "too complicated" do you mean that it cannot be resolve and we need to wait till one of the entities (israel or hamas) will disappear?

to progress with this conflict we should recognize that under the Hamas there are progressive people who can understand a future that include Israel, and from the other side there are a lot of potential to address the real immediate need of people that can appeal to people more then a dream that Qasam and Alla will win over the Israel better ability to use weapon and technology.

You are missing the fact that nor Israel nor the Hamas/Palestine are monolith; its all about the ability of the center views to win the internal struggel in israel and Palestine.

(http://BuildPaletine.org )

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