Lets put this in the correct perspective..... Hamas was firing thousands of missles into civillian terrotories. They were using border crossings to smuggle weapons, they were using civilian consruction materials to build a military undergroup infrastructure - used against Israe. The UN report, supposed to be released any day now says that the blockade is legal. The fact that the people are suffering is not under disputr but the cause is not Israel, it is the terrorist orginization controlling Gaza.
Do you reemember that the Rafah border was open with EU supervisiors? As soon as Hamas took ovr the chased them away. Israel is not in Gaza and its blockaide is legal by international standards... Let Egypt take care of the mess there and deal with it's terrorist leaders.
Let’s look at a few authentic facts, rather than hysterical myth mongering:
All that you have shown that Israel can defend itself and is the stronger party. You have not told us the circumstances of the casualties. The Palestinians were in all cases the initiators of unprovoked attacks as per reports from the area while the resultant Palestinian deaths were in most cases as a result of firings from populated areas while the terrorists were using the population as human shields.
Why would you consider facts as hysterical myth mongering
Almost 4,000,000 German civillians were killed in World War 2 and 60,000 English civillians were killed. According to your logic it is the Germans were therefore justtified in the war and the Britsh are simple evil, I guess...
Susan - please let me know how this logic makes any sense..
Key points of the video clip
1. IDF Spokesperson Unit Presents…(ie questionable source)
The IDF Spokesperson is not an objective source of information on the situation in Gaza. This is the same group that created the faked tapes about Gaza Flotilla
And continues to hold them out to be true:
If we want to verify the competing stories then the IDF has a responsibility to release all the video and audio footage. For example through contact with Huwaida Arraf I can tell you that Channel 9 the emergency channel was taped. So any conversation on channel 9 was recorded and publicly accessible. For the IDF to establish any veracity to its allegations there needs to be detailed complementary evidence not one narrow version.
The IDF Spokesperson is the same group that whips up hysteria and paranoia within the Israeli population about Palestinians in general. It is the same group that falsifies the grounds for arrest of Israelis who are supportive in nonviolent protests.
Take for the example the arrest of Yonatan Shapira and Matan Cohen at Nabi Salih 2 July 2010. both nonviolent Israeli activists.
The IDF spekespersons version of events is “2 arrested rioters in Nabi Salih who attacked an IDF soldier”. Compare this to what you see with your eyes.
vs 2. IDF version: Which do you believe?
Instead of presenting objective material that will help build peace, it is contributing to eventually the creation of a self-fulfilling prophecy. ie push another peoples head under water long enough and surprise, surprise they will fight back.
Matan Cohen shot in the eye with a rubber bullet (2006)
2. 260 trucks allowed into Gaza a day. (cf capacity of 800 at Karni crossing alone, not even considering Kerem Shalom crossing)
Key points not mentioned in the video clip
1. 260 trucks is not enough to sustain the growth of a population of 1.5 million people that has been devastated by bombardment of missiles from Israel in repeated military offensives since Gaza was occupied in 1967.
Karni crossing has a capacity of 800 trucks of import and export per day. This figure is not being met.
Gisha 2010 Report
Gisha recommended that 400 truckloads of export alone be alloewed per day.
2. Gisha reports - 83% of Gaza's factories are closed or working at 50% or less capacity - Israel forbids export from Gaza: not a single truck allowed since May
3. Gaza has next to no exports allowed – condemning the population to UN handouts and survival based on paying taxes to smugglers – money which goes to Hamas.
4. Freedom of movement is denied for men aged 18-40. Condemning the rare exceptions for study, business and travel abroad. This will be a catalyst for further resistance to Israel not bring it closer to rapprochement.
Jeff - if we want peace - we need to ensure the people in Gaza receive basic rights eg right to export, right to import (without excessive arbitrary interference), freedom of movement, right to life (eg end permitted killing zones within 300 metres -1km of the border).
Yes, of course I condemn rocket and mortar attacks on ISrael. Yes I condemn the use of hostages as in the case of Gilad Shalit as I question Israel's imprisonment of more than 6,000 Palestinians.
That does not make it right or productive to continue this senseless closure.
Do you believe that you or any other individual or state have the right to tell the sovereign state of Israel. through its democratically elected government, what is productive and what is senseless when they are within International rights in what they are doing?
Is any state within their rights to close their borders to people it rejects for political or criminal behaviour? Can a state determine whether it can hermetically close its border to both exports and imports?
Israel has a right to jail and imprison terrorists and their facilitators as per international law and no one has the right to question that.
Rafah is open. Let Egypt enlarge that if required and all ties between Gaza and Israel should and could be severed as they were until 1967.
Let Hamas change their charter, release Gilad Shalit and abide by signed agreements and than we will have something to discuss. Until than I am 100% behind Israeli actions,
You want o talk about fake information regarding the situation in Gaza... we all remember the fake photos of poweroutages in Gaza....
And of course the extremely high obesity rate for "starving" Palestinians"
Regarding sources used - sources like electronic intafata or ifonly america knew, Israel propaganda ...these are the quality souces that are being used on this sites..so I woudl be careful before I criticize.
Remember according to the UN teh blockaid is legal.... all materials must be inspected because the people running Gaza have a tendency to want to kill innocent civiliian..
Regarding what is needed for peace - its first and formost to reign in on the terrorist who target civillians in Gaza. Gilad Shalit has yet to see the red cross wile the 6,000 inmates in Israel recieve an education and cable TV.......
The closure is needed as long as terrorists ruke Gaza - let egypt take care of them... you ever wonder why they dont?
Jeff - What is your position on Gisha?
Where are there figures wrong?
What motivates Israelis who are part of Gisha to be concerned for the welfare of Palestinians living in Gaza under siege?
Again I condemn the holding of Gilad Shalit, but can we not extend our humanity to others too who do not enjoy the same pleasures as your average middle class citizen in Tel Aviv or San Francisco?
Israel is a free country - anyone is allowed to believe what they like and I can respect other peoples opinion. I am first and foremost concerned about me and my family, as should be my country, I wish people in Gisha would be as concerned about Israelis as they are with Palestinians.... As for their motivations, I do not understand them as I do not understand many others.
What Arab in the mideast holds the same pleasure as you and I do other than those in Israel. You do realize all of these dictatorships you are trying to free people to, are simply enslaving them, that is not so liberal of you....
The Gift of Gisha
This is the beauty of people supportive of Gisha, they are able to look outside their own comfort zone to the needs of others. This is the best of humanity.
The situation of Palestinians in Israel
If you listen to Adalah or New Israel Fund you will well know (and disagree) that Palestinians living in Israel, whilst having many benefits are also denied basic rights whether in direct ways or indirect. Democracy is not just about the right to vote and right to free press. It is about rights to land regardless of ethnicity, it is about the right to have political parties even those opposed to a Jewish State. It is up to citizens to choose their ideal way of living so long as it does not harm another.
See the problematics of the Jewish National Fund and the issue of tenancy and ownership in Israel
The challenge of decolonisation
Jeff, I agree we need to be concerned about the welfare of the citizens in Arab States that face continued authoritarian rule or a threat of a narrow strand of politicised Islam. But what are the choice here? To maintain paternalistic control or allow people the right to self-detremination? Yes, in the short term things may be difficult and dangerous. Letting go is a risk. But to maintain control against the wishes of another is anti-democratic and against basic principles of human rights.
Yes, if we look at other regions of the world we will see the same issues played out. Look at the situation in South Africa. Is the average citizens life better than under Apartheid. Opponents to liberalisation would have argued maintaing Apartheid because it guaranteed order. (But at whose expense?)
What about Russia. Was life better for the average citizen under Communism or the new Russia? what about Iraq? Was the life better for the average citizen under Suddam Hussein or what we have today? The list goes on look at the results of decolonisation in Africa, Asia, South America etc. What is the life of the average citizen like?
You will get a variety of responses.
My argument is in the short-term ie one, two or three generations life for the average citizen may continue to be hard (even worse) without the authoritarian ruler. The hope is long-term 100 years + steps will be put in place to ensure that the basic rights of ordinary citizens are guaranteed.
Jeff, that video is propaganda, with truckloads of fake facts.
Here are some correct figures:
The total amount of goods passing into Gaza via Kerom Shalom Crossing has been the equivalent of about 2.6 kilograms per person per day for the twelve months since restrictions were eased in August 2010.
The situation is much worse for exports, which are vital to Gaza’s economy:
The Gisha organization reported on 29 June 2011, that not a single truckload of export goods had left Gaza since 12 May. (48 consecutive days)
Israel, as signatory to the 2005 Crossings Agreement, agreed to provide for up to 400 truckloads of Gazan exports PER DAY to be processed through the Karni Crossing.
This is not a priviledge, it is normal relations.
I am pretty sure all agreements are no longer necessary once Hamas decided to fire 1000's of missiles, wouldn't you say? The point here is that no one is starving in Gaza.... by the way nothing normal about the relationship between the two countries.