I read through the discussion groups and have noticed the horrible hate and anti-semetic rants that go on here. Dehumanizing Israel, Jews, settlers, comparisons to the Nazis, how can any of this contribute to peace?
Peace can not equal hate and instead of trying to betterthe situation for all peoples in the region, talking about solutions there is mostly spewing hate. Where are all the peace activits, the idea that all people are created equal and should be treated as such. Condeming things like terrorist and racist on BOTH sides.....
Strange Israel withe all its faults and there are many is still the only country in the mideast that gives all its citizens freedom of expression, press, religion - gives them all a vote in free and open elections... There is NO country in the Arab world that even comes close. Yet by reading this site you would think we are talking about Saudi Arabia, Sudan, China, Egypt or Iran.....
Wake up.... See how the whole arab world is demanding the same rights given to ALL Israeli citizens... Yes, we must find a way for peace between Palestinians and Israelis but it will never be found this way...
I look forward tocomments here that are constructive and dont contribute to further anomacity...
Replies are closed for this discussion.
Like I said I do not think Israel is perfect but, I challange you to name an Arab country that allows its minorities the same rights as Israel does. In any and every country if you build a home illeglally than it will be torn down as Israel has done to many Jewish homes build both within the country and settlers, include whole settlements. In fact, they kicked 10,000 out of their homes, Jews... Some might even call taht ethnic clensing, I am guessing that is OK in you book because you deem them illegle - try to follow your own logic.
As for the term "anti-semite" it is an accepted term today to refer to anti-jew, if you would prefer anti-jew thanI will say anti Jew. This is no diffrence to Arabs calling themselves Palestnians, Jews were just as Palestinian as Palestinians are, you can look at my grandfathers passport. But today we call the Arabs in the west bank and gaza Palestinians. If this also makes you feel uncomfortable I will call them the Arabs of former Palestine.
Funny you mention Jordan as your example - they have been great to tgheir monirty Palesinian population, sorry the Arabs of the former Palestine, they only killed a few hundred thousand in a matter of a few weeks on one day in September...
The land that is currently Israel was nottaken, it was given by the UN resolution 181 and 242... The lands lost in these villages was the result of war that the Arabs started (over and over and keep lossing).
As for your father, i am very sorry and the is the concerquence of war... I know many, many Jews who were born in places like Iran, Syria, Yemen etc.... who will never be able to visit the countries they were born in after they were thrown out by decree - not even by war... Lets just keep it all in perspective..
I look forward to your reply - dont forget to start with the name of the country yu believe even teh average citizen is given more rights then any Israeli citizen...
It very strange how Israelis love to tell us how terrible Arab countries are, and then reassure us that Israel is okay, because it is just the tiniest bit better than the worst Arab country they can think of.
Dan, nothing you say ever makes sense, because no matter how nice you tell us Israel is, we can all see that Israel has massive settlements on the land that is proposed as the area for a Palestinian State.
Furthermore, you fail to admit that the settlers are protected by Israeli Defence Forces, and you also never disclose that those settlers are armed with very powerful weapons that are supplied free by the IDF. What’s more, the settlers have access to roads and infrastructure that is not available to their Arab neighbours, who were there long before the settlers arrived.
Everyone knows this, so why pretend it is not so?
It is true and I have no reason to hide,settlers are protected by Israeli Defence Forces, and some are armed with weapons that are supplied by the civil authority not the army and settlers have access to roads and infrastructure that is not available to their Arab neighbors, who were there long before the settlers arrived. - I said it all not let me finish your rant. Israel like all other countries protect its citizens and like all other Israeli citizen, Jew and Arab one can apply for a weapons permit. Israel does not allow arabs access to many road because they have used them in the past to kill Israeli civilians, most of these roads are new road built by Israel. I will also admit to checkpoints that Arabs have to go through and cannot move freely in the west bank, this is because it turns out that there are Arabs that like to blow themselves up and kill men women and childern in the name of Allah.
Now Susan please admit that there are many arabs who support the murder of civilians whether is be in a mall or a pre-school... Please admit that if settlers were not armed of the army were not there to protect them they would be massacred. Admit that if the Arabs shared the Israeli built road with the Jews thee would be many who would use them to murder in the name of Allah. Now admit that if the humiliation checkpoints were not there, if the seperation barrier were not there, Israel would be burying many more civillians...Everyone knows this, so why pretend it is not so?
SAMIRA. You mean like the peace that prevailed between 1948 and 1967?
How many documented rapes can you tell us about? Who does the raping? Where did they occur? If it was not serious , it would be plain laughable. I would assume that you have first hand knowledge of what you say?
MORE LIES to demonize Jews and Israel.
Rapes, unfortunately of kids or adolescents in the military jails or at the famous "parties" of the Border Police. One young men died of this a few years ago. Everything else is shut down as tightly as possible - and the kids don't want to return to face their torturers who anyway have ALL the power.
It would be like a Jew in German of the 1930s complaining against a German at a German Court.
The soldiers/border policemen are Israeli. The victim is Palestinian. The (Military) Court is Israeli. No lawyers, no visits of parents, no protection whatsoever... And you wonder that you don't hear about it?
Only recently I read about that in Haaretz, 972.mag or Occupation Magazine - I don't exactly remember, but it was a big story, because these kids now get a voice for the first time..
SAMIRA. Are you aware that a large percentage of the Border Police is Druze. You know about the Druze, don't you?
I would thank you to stop with the Nazi analogy as it is very offensive and has no bearing to the current situation whatsoever.
Obviously you have no clue as to what you are saying and your sources, that you don't remember or are misquoting are a red herring that just laid a chicken egg.
And to imagine that you call yourself a peacemaker. Shocking and revealing.
It is instructive that you are relying on urban myths and second or third hand information.
HAVE YOU EVEN BEEN TO THE MIDDLE EAST?
Tony, your Suggestion that the Nazi analogy is very offensive is a manipulative attempt to control the direction of the discussion based on the idea that the Nazis are in some way especially evil, as opposed to other groups that routinely commit massacres.
Likewise, your ‘fact’ that the Border Police are Druze implies that it is not Israel’s responsibility if they rape the women, due to the implied nature of the Druze.
You then completely abandon any attempt to be courteous, and insult Samira by saying she has no clue as to what she is saying.
This is full blown propaganda. The issues were never addressed, nor was the truth examined.
And to imagine that you call yourself a peacemaker. Shocking and revealing.
SUSSAN: Frankly, I am getting sick and tired of Jews and Israelis being compared to Nazis or the use of Nazi analogies to link with Jews and Israel. It is the Mufti that collaborated with the Nazis and they used Nazi sentiments in the news media both before the aggression of 1948 as well as that usage just prior to 1967. So please spare me the nonsense that it is a valid argument. ISRAEL has NEVER committed atrocities towards the Arabs, but the Arabs have committed atrocities against the Jews even before the State of Israel.
I just pointed out facts and have not implied anything towards the Druze, as I have the most respect for them as a people and the job that they are doing. It is Samira that made an allegation against the Border Police and implied that it was committed by Jews. I maintain that no rapes have been committed by anyone associated with the IDF or individual Jews and that she has nothing but a vivid imagination and I called her on that. If someone presents LIES as facts than there is no reply but rather a curt reply is warranted. You cannot smear someone and than get away with it while claiming that it is a valid argument.
If you do not see the sheer nonsense of what Samira is trying to pass of as the truth than perhaps you yourself does not know what you are talking about.
You just exposed that this may not,in fact, be a peace site but a vehicle to bash Israel and the Facts and the Truth be damned. It is shocking and revealing that you or Samira call yourselves peacemakers.
I am so offended that nazi-like propaganda takes center stage on any forum but especially on one that wants to promote peace.
What Samira has stated is a Blood Libel and yet you are defending her. Truly Shocking.
You are making an illogical circuitous argument. The sequence of events must be adhered to and not just taking a starting point which seems to be a moving target. The League of Nations gave Britain a Mandate for Palestine to create a National home for JEWS and than went on to break its terms. Lets fast forward to 1947 when the UNGA voted for partition. Jews agreed ,the Arabs did not making that vote null and void and reverting back to the Mandate as the UN assumed all the obligations of the League of Nations.
If not for the Arab invasion, there would have been a Arab State in Palestine and as it was it was occupied by Jordan 1948-1967 illegally, I may add by Egypt and Jordan without the Palestinians claiming to be occupied. There were no Palestinians in 1967 and 242 talks about Egypt, Jordan,Syria and Israel (the High Contracting parties)
There was terror between 1949 and 1967 emanating from Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon with the idea of Liberating Palestine (namely Israel in its pre 1967 borders) Jordan launched a war in 1967 and lost its occupied territories and subsequently made peace with Israel agreeing to no claims against Israel. Israel is therefore in possession of disputed lands as you cannot occupy lands that were not sovereign by anyone.
The 1967 cease fire lines are not borders but rather demarcation lines at the insistence of Jordan and the Arab League. The populations of Judea and Samaria are in fact Jordanian citizens and must conform to Israeli law there.
Until 2000 the Arabs of Judea and Samaria had almost full employment and there were no checkpoints but in 2000 the Palestinians decided to start a shooting war called Intifada.
There will not be peace with terror, delligitemizing of Israel, failure to conclude an end of conflict clause and recognition of Israel as a Jewish State. Agree to that and start negotiating. Once you have a state than you will not have to worry about checkpoints and what you call expulsions or demolitions. Until than Israel has a right under International Law to do what it sees fit.
I thought you would apprecite this:
A report published by the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Network states the following:
According to what we have learned in our interviews, although Palestinian refugees have been given Jordanian nationality, they are strongly discriminated against because of their Palestinian origins. In practice, roughly 90% of all government posts, in particular in the army, police, magistracy and the universities are reserved for people of Jordanian origin.
The Jordanians of Palestinian origin appear to be convinced that the authorities look upon them as temporary citizens who shouldn't really be given the right to settle because it is envisaged that they will one day return to Palestine. In his book entitled 'Jordanians, Palestinians and the Hashemite Kingdom', Mr. Adnan Abu-Odeh, a writer and former head of the Jordanian government, explains that although the laws do not advocate any form of discrimination as such, a certain de facto discrimination exists vis-à-vis Palestinians. Some people claim, for example, that the electoral system prevents Jordanians of Palestinian origin from being properly represented in parliament. According to the statements, it would appear that in those areas where Jordanians of Palestinian origin are in the majority, the number of seats up for election is generally less than the number of seats in areas where the majority of people are Jordanian in origin.
"Jordanians are given more rights than Arab-Israelis." Do you really believe this? - I guess you have not been following the news lately
I mean they have an Un-elected monarchy - If you speak against him yu can go to prison....
One of the first things I stated is that Israel is not perfect...
"I would love to see you fight against discrimination against Arab-Israelis." - the thing is Arab Israelis dont need my help they should all go out and vote and join the governent then they can make real change - they choose not to utilize the democracy they were given... why is it that 20% of the population in Israel is Arab but only 8% in the Kinneset - they have the tools.
Please remember that after everything the settlers are people too - many who are living simple lives in an area that the governemnt sent them. Many living on private Jewish land purchased.... they too deserve right sand should no be discriminated because they are Jewish...
Regarding the expulsion of populations - should the Jews not be equally compensated for them being expelled? The difference is they were not expelled as a consequence of war ...there was no war between the Arab countries and their Jewish populations....
There is difference between Israel bashing and holding a government to account for their actions. It is a foundation of the democratic system to critically analyse what a state says it stands for and what in fact happens on the ground.
I will be the first to say the governments in Saudi Arabia, Sudan, China, Egypt or Iran continue to deny people basic human rights. The thing is that is no justification for denying Israel to be accountable for her actions in war and in continuing to occupy or lay siege to Palestinian people.
As a teacher I am very familiar with students who get caught for doing something wrong try to excuse themselves of responsibility by saying look what someone else is doing. My response to the student is for them first to focus on their behaviour admit responsibility, so that I can then move on to the other offending students. If that one student continues to argue to avoid responsibility all this means is I have little time or energy to move on to the next offending students. The point is if you get caught, admit it, then we can move on and try and solve other problems. If Israel, despite all the elements of democracy cannot respond to the situation of Palestinians with compassion and justice, then why should we expect anything more of the Egyptians, Saudis or whoever?
Dan, I wish you peace. I wish your family peace. And I am sure whether in this generation or the next the people of Israel and Palestine will live together side-by-side as neighbours and friends. There is so much that the people of Israel and Palestine share in their stories.
If you are in Israel I hope you get a chance to catch up with the other mepeace people on the ground so you can share with others their personal stories
Shalom Salam Peace