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Israel's actions in Gaza is an act of self-defense == Morally and legally

Israel's actions in Gaza is an act of self-defense both morally and legally.

The clip below is from from aljazeera, and also:appears elsewhere on this site.

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Dear Ayse,

This is a multi-political platform, we have here many people from different palces and different interpertations of the reality we all experience.

I can resonate with the emotions you project but we will not be able to communicate if we will force each other definitions.

I invite you to check Humans in Wolves clothing - how do you envision shared future which doesn't exclude anybody.

please assume humanity and honesty in people you disagree with.



The original post name "Wolves in sheep clothing" which is a well known and use human metaphor we all share. (and I will not be surprised to find that the core of this metaphor is Arab). This metaphor link to the images of evil creatures who are hiding under sheep skin. this is a very strong claim that there are people who are not honest to be a peaceful sheep and the actually wolves who seek prey.

In the title "Humans in Wolves clothing" I am suggesting to use the metaphor one step further and recognize that these people who we think of as wolves are human under it so we can work with them to create our mutual future.

I wish the best and seek ways to work with people who are sure I am a wolves and I see that they are humans as me. I forgive them not to recognize that and love them as my brothers.

for them it will continue to be a "Wolves in sheep clothing" no matter what I say or do since they are "Humans in Wolves clothing" who do not recognize my human core same bit of heart same metaphors.

It is sad, but full of hope since are all "in clothing" of our dogma and self righteousness fail to recognize somethings in us. we are all imperfect humans who need to solve this fucking hard puzzle that kills in us. Any true honest human will tell you that any solution for human problem must includes everybody with no exceptions in any body's clothing can solve.

I have no doubt in my mind that we are all "Humans in SOMETHING clothing" and as Humans we will think and act for our share basic identity,
Ayse, my apologies if there has been a misunderstanding in language that I have used. In no way did I seek to take away from the abhorrence that is occurring in Gaza at the moment. I used the word tragedy in the broadest sense of the word - a situation of great pain and suffering. Yes, there are other ways to describe the suffering and violence occurring now, however, I chose the word tragedy as I hoped that those from different political view points could agree at a minimum that this is indeed what was happening. That fellow human beings are being inflicted with great pain and suffering.

Our challenge as a community is how to communicate our message without others mistaking our intention. This I believe is related to Neri's point. I believe there must be a certain amount of patience on our part and certain amount of initiative to research another members experience and perspectives to help see a fuller picture of a person and possibly avoid misunderstandings.
Thank you Stewart for what I think is a very rare and real live example of attempt at conciliating and thus peacemaking on this site.

For more, go to http://www.mepeace.org/xn/detail/661876:Comment:179804

==PmR
Why should the IDF not plan for various contigingencies? That is what an army is upposed to do. There is NOTHING sinister about that kind of planning fo plausible contingencies....

Basil wrote: "I condemn both sides for the violence. I wish more Israelis and Palestinians would state the same."

I agree. I do. But I am not a local resident.
Paul, I accept that the job of the armed forces is to protect the citizens of its country. But where is the Palestinian army? I can tell you where...it does not exist! Why? The Palestinians have been denied the right to raise an army! Instead they are permitted to have limited security forces (barely enough to protect H E Mahmoud Abbas!) How, may I ask does one expect a 'state', which is what the pathetic bits of land given to the Palestinians is meant to represent, call itself a state when it cannot raise an army???

Believe me everyone, i do not approve of violence! HOWEVER, in the face of such oppression (which nobody can deny), how exactly are the Palestinians meant to live in that good old phrase "Peace and Security"?

Let us not forget how many of today's modern states were formed. Obviously times have changed and weapons have developed, but at the end of the day violence is violence no matter what phase of history it takes place. The United States of America was born on the armed resistance against the British!

Lest we forget these famous words:
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"

Hypocracy is the world's greatest evil!


On a separate issue, but nontheless one highly linked to this crisis, I am afraid that perhaps one major point is this apparent 'intellectual terrorism' that the Israelis along with the support of many in the West have managed to propogate. Although I am totally and whole-heartedly disgusted with the events of the holocaust in Europe, I feel the extreme sensitivity of the issue has served to undermine the very reason for celebrating its rememberance. What has happened is that it has consumed the world and made it blind to the new genocide that has taken place for decades in the Holy Land.

Yet again I repeat, hypocracy is the world's greatest evil!
Hi Faris:

I agree that "hypocrisy is the world's greatest evil!".

New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg about proportionality (CNN == 2009-Jan -04)

1. Bloomberg's blame game will just lead to retribution - and so the cycle of violence will continue

I am saddened by Michael Bloomberg's statement.

He simply blames Hamas. In doing so he undermines yet another opportunity for peace by playing the blame game.

Both Hamas and the Israeli government are responsible for these deaths.

Both the Israeli government and Hamas are responsible for creating a new generation that experienced the brutality and sickness that is war.

What we need are leaders who look at the events of 1917, 1922, 1948, 1967, 1993, 2000 and 2008 and see why both Jewish and Palestinians feel they are the greater victim? We need leaders who acknowledge their mutual pain and see ways that security and justice can be brought to both communities.

Michael Bloomberg also fails to understand the significance of proportionality.

2. Proportionality is an integral part of criminal law and humanitarian law

Criminal law and Humanitarian law demand authorities use a proportionate response to restrain or kill an offender or during a conflict. Criminal law will convict police officers (or citizens) who use disproportionate force to subdue an alleged defendant. Humanitarian law and just war theory is based on proportionality.

In civilised societies we place limits on what the state can or cannot do. There must be a limit to the number of people that can be killed in response for a state achieving an objective.

Is a country justified to kill 1000, 2000, 10,000, 50,000, 100,000, 1 million people if 15 of their citizens are killed? Is there a limit? Of course there is. To say otherwise is abhorrent, despicable and lacking all sense of fairness.

Israel says that the rocket attacks are grounds for war. Israel has lost 15 citizens in 5 years to rocket attacks. Palestinians lost 14 people a week in the same period due to Israel's insistence on controlling the West Bank and Gaza as it has done since 1967.

I will remind you of the Nazi approach to retribution. How many prisoner's were killed if one person escaped from a concentration camp or a POW camp? How many citizens of a village would be killed if one German officer or soldier was killed?

There must be a limit to how many a people a state can kill in response to an alleged misdeed. Beyond that limit is excessive and disproportional force. This type of force should not be tolerated and we should condemn it - just as we can rightly condemn firing rockets into random civilian areas.
Israel has lost this war before it even began. After it started it shot itself repeatedly in the face. Just this one picture should be enough to tell us what is happening.

Yes Mazin. You are correct! Manufacturing and using predictable photo opportunities like that above above are obviously is why Hamas and others are playing this sick and contemptible photo game.

Why else did Hamas invite the war. Hamas (and others) are obviously trying to play the sick game:
Heads OR Tails ==> Hamas wins and Israel looses game.

You and I both know that Mazin.
My dear Paul:
Can you explain this " Manufacturing and using predictable photo opportunities like that above above are obviously is why Hamas and others are playing this sick and contemptible photo game"
I am not sure I understand what you are trying to insinuate. That the photo is fake? or that using the photo is a hamas ploy? Can you tell us what the picture shows? Please enlighten us more.
Dear Mazin,

the only way to stop the insinuations of Paul and his twisted arguments: don't reply :) Our rational answers feed his trollmania and gives to him an unappropriate importance... Waste of time...

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