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Loving Israel to death - Palestinian deniers and the end of the two state solution

Well done Tom Friedman on this piece.

It never ceases to amaze me the sycophancy of certain Republican US presidential hopefuls.  Pity the thought for what Gingrich and his cronies think of Native Americans. Would he suggest that Native Americans migrated to the region from surrounding 'lands' for economic work?

Friedman says our pro-Israel 'friends' in the US are either laying the path for an apartheid state, ethnic cleansing or a binational state.  Friedman as  traditional two state solutionist  (in the vein of the Oslo Accords) as such rejects the inflammatory and ahistorical statements made by Gingrich and right wing revisionists like Joan Peters.

As a background to the history of Palestinian people see:

http://israelandpalestinediary.blogspot.com/2010/12/finding-common-...

http://palestineisraelpopulation.blogspot.com/

Justin McCarthy, Palestine's Population During The Ottoman And The British Mandate Periods, 2001

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story5...

http://mepeace.org/forum/topics/quastion-from-palestinian?commentId...

http://www.palestineremembered.com/GeoPoints/Palestinian_History_Fo...

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/A-Survey-of-Palestine/S...


Newt, Mitt, Bibi and Vladimir

Thomas L Friedman

Published: December 13, 2011
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/14/opinion/friedman-newt-mitt-bibi-a...

I have a simple motto when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I love both Israelis and Palestinians, but God save me from some of their American friends — those who want to love them to death, literally.

That thought came to mind last week when Newt Gingrich took the Republican competition to grovel for Jewish votes — by outloving Israel — to a new low by suggesting that the Palestinians are an “invented” people and not a real nation entitled to a state.

This was supposed to show that Newt loves Israel more than Mitt Romney, who only told the Israeli newspaper Israel Hayom that he would move the U.S. embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem because “I don’t seek to take actions independent of what our allies think is best, and if Israel’s leaders thought that a move of that nature would be helpful to their efforts, then that’s something I’ll be inclined to do. ... I don’t think America should play the role of the leader of the peace process. Instead, we should stand by our ally.”


That’s right. America’s role is to just applaud whatever Israel does, serve as its A.T.M. and shut up. We have no interests of our own. And this guy’s running for president?
As for Newt, well, let’s see: If the 2.5 million West Bank Palestinians are not a real people entitled to their own state, that must mean Israel is entitled to permanently occupy the West Bank and that must mean — as far as Newt is concerned — that Israel’s choices are: 1) to permanently deprive the West Bank Palestinians of Israeli citizenship and put Israel on the road to apartheid; 2) to evict the West Bank Palestinians through ethnic cleansing and put Israel on the road to the International Criminal Court in the Hague; or 3) to treat the Palestinians in the West Bank as citizens, just like Israeli Arabs, and lay the foundation for Israel to become a binational state. And this is called being “pro-Israel”?


I’d never claim to speak for American Jews, but I’m certain there are many out there like me, who strongly believe in the right of the Jewish people to a state, who understand that Israel lives in a dangerous neighborhood yet remains a democracy, but who are deeply worried about where Israel is going today. My guess is we’re the minority when it comes to secular American Jews. We still care. Many other Jews are just drifting away.


I sure hope that Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, understands that the standing ovation he got in Congress this year was not for his politics. That ovation was bought and paid for by the Israel lobby. The real test is what would happen if Bibi tried to speak at, let’s say, the University of Wisconsin. My guess is that many students would boycott him and many Jewish students would stay away, not because they are hostile but because they are confused.


It confuses them to read that Israel’s foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, who met with Prime Minister Vladimir Putin of Russia last Wednesday, was quoted as saying that the recent Russian elections were “absolutely fair, fre... Yes, those elections — the ones that brought thousands of Russian democrats into the streets to protest the fraud. Israel’s foreign minister sided with Putin.


It confuses them to read that right-wing Jewish settlers attacked an Israeli army base on Tuesday in the West Bank, stoning Israeli soldiers in retaliation for the army removing “illegal” settlements that Jewish extremists establish wherever they want.


It confuses them to read, as the New Israel Fund reports on its Web site, that “more than 10 years ago, the ultra-Orthodox community asked Israel’s public bus company, Egged, to provide segregated buses in their neighborhoods. By early 2009, more than 55 such lines were operating around Israel. Typically, women are required to enter through the bus back doors and sit in the back of the bus, as well as ‘dress modestly.’ ”


It confuses them to read a Financial Times article from Israel on Monday, that said: “In recent weeks, the country has been consumed by an anguished debate over a series of new laws and proposals that many fear are designed to stifle dissent, weaken minority rights, restrict freedom of speech and emasculate the judiciary. They include a law that in effect allows Israeli communities to exclude Arab families; another that imposes penalties on Israelis advocating a boycott of products made in West Bank Jewish settlements; and proposals that would subject the supreme court to greater political oversight.”


And it confuses them to read Gideon Levy, a powerful liberal voice, writing in Haaretz, the Israeli daily, this week that “anyone who says this is a matter of a few inconsequential laws is leading others astray. ... What we are witnessing is w-a-r. This fall a culture war, no less, broke out in Israel, and it is being waged on many more, and deeper, fronts than are apparent. It is not only the government, as important as that is, that hangs in the balance, but also the very character of the state.”
So while Newt is cynically asking who are the Palestinians, he doesn’t even know that more than a few Israelis are asking, “Who are we?”

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/lieberman-russia-elec...

The elections, which were recently described by U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton as neither free nor fair, resulted with Putin's United Russia party winning less than 50 percent of Sunday's vote – a steep fall from its earlier two-thirds majority.

New Israel Fund

http://www.nif.org/index.php

Gender segregation in Jerusalem, CNN, 12 December 2011

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2011/12/12/pkg-flower-is...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence

Israeli settlers clash with troops in West Bank
Jewish settlers vandalise Israeli army base in protest over planned evacuations of unauthorised settlement outposts
13 December 2011

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/13/israeli-settlers-clash-...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16158623

Maps of late 1800s Palestine

 

Maps from Baedecker's book

Jaffa

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/jaffa_1912.jpg

Baedeker's Maps of Palestine 1912

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/history_middle_east.html

 

Southern Palestine: Hebron, Gaza, Akaba 1:500,000

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/books/travel/593773/593773-c-136b-400.html

 

Sinai Peninsula Map 1:1,500,000

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/books/travel/593773/593773-c-212b-400.html

 

Map Syria and Palestine 1:3,000,000

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/books/travel/593773/593773-d-002-800.html

 

Population statistics

 

http://www.cjpme.ca/documents/En%20Demographics%20Factsheet%20v.1.pdf

 

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=0...

Links to further information on the population of Israel and Palestine

 

The Question of Palestine and the United Nations, United Nations, New York, 2008.

http://unispal.un.org/pdfs/DPI2499.pdf

 

The Palestine Question: A Brief History Prepared for, and under the guidance of the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People, 1 July 1980

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/38D6C47FC5FB0CDD852575D6006C70D4

 

The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem: 1917-1988 Part I, 1917-1947

http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/0/AEAC80E740C782E4852561150071FDB0

 

Population of Greater Palestine and Greater Israel (1851-1995)

http://palestineisraelpopulation.blogspot.com/

 

Encyclopaedia Britannica 11th Edition (1910-11). Cambridge University Press, p 604

http://www.archive.org/stream/encyclopdiabri20chis#page/604/mode/2u... [original]

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Palestine [html]

[Population 650,000, two thirds Moslems, rest Christians and Jews.]

Maps

1946 map of Palestine [includes hand drawn 1949 demarcation lines]

1:250,000

Compiled, drawn and printed Survey of Palestine August 1944

MDR 1509/12460

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story582.html

 

American Peace Now Settlement Interactive Map

http://peacenow.org/map.php

A map of depopulated villages

Palestine Land Society

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story1261.html

 

UK Cabinet Papers 1918

CAB 24/72 GT/6506 (cabinet papers)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mideaststrategy/5080134925/in/photostream

Map of Palestine 1889

http://www.archive.org/stream/palestine00cond#page/n303/mode/

Map of Palestine 1888

http://www.archive.org/stream/palestineillustr00temp#page/n39/mode/1up   p12


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Talking to a wall... But thinks for the info!

I think you should just post the quote within the article it was originally in and he will shut it! He did when I posted a Daniel Pipes article showing that the Syrian quotes are nationalist ramblings and nothing more!     

When WILL THE MODERATORS START ERASING ISRAEL, JEW HATING POSTS?  DO THE MODERATORS THINK THAT THIS IS THE WAY TO WIN OVER JEWS AND ISRAELIS?

When WILL THE MODERATORS START ERASING PALESTINE, ARAB HATING POSTS?  DO THE MODERATORS THINK THAT THIS IS THE WAY TO WIN OVER ARABS AND PALESTINIANS ?


You guys are far more racist then me by a trillion times!

A brief account of ancient Jewish times in Palestine, of the Arab conquest and occupation, of the dispersion of the Jews and the development of the Jewish Problem, and the growth and meaning of Zionism.


A long winded treaties signifying really nothing. But than off course you do have a habit of taking some very straight forward facts and making it out to be whatever you think is the prevailing thinking that you embrace. It is interesting that the Peel Commission agrees that the Arab population is not Canaaite, Philistine or Jebusite but rather conquerors and occupiers.

The facts are that Britain received a Mandate for Palestine to poster Jewish immigration and to usher in a Jewish government and even in Peel it acquiesces that such government is ready to govern. Jewish or Arab "terrorism" notwithstanding the British had the obligation to turn over all of Palestine to the Jews and its provisional government. Anything else is just simply a travesty. The Partition of Palestine into a Jewish State and an Arab State occurred in 1923 with the FORMATION of a JUDENFREI Trans Jordan. The only solution post mandate, should have been  for Jordan to have transferred the Arab population of the Arab State-Whatever its future name- to that State

Gingrich is not being criticized by anyone other then the Palestinians for his veracity but rather for his remarks being unhelpful/ There is no catastrophe attached in that truthful statement at all and eventually that will have to be the solution . Two states for two peoples living separate and apart in peace and security. The Palestinians are in the majority in Jordan so there is really no need to set up another state for them. The Palestinians of Judea and Samaria are Jordanian citizens as per International Law.


You take on Nationhood is completely skewed. Poland, Ukraine, Serbia, Croatia, Hungary have been recognized Nations even if they did not have States for periods of time. Scotland, Wales and Ireland have had States for a short peiod of time in their histories yet they are recognized as a Nation. The Gypsies, the Corsicans, the Flemish, the Kurds never had States but they are Nations. This cannot be said of the Palestinians-THEY are the ARAB Nation-PERIOD. They know their roots.The various Arab countries do not denote Nationhood but rather Clan affiliations and where created by the Colonial Powers artificially and that is why you have these violent outbursts from time to time.

      “Two States for two peoples living separate and apart in peace and security,” said by Kingsley    Hartman.

 

      ‘separate and apart’ looks and sounds dangerously like apartheid.

SUSSAN

 

What I can I say.Wanting the evacuation of all from Judea and Samaria is not apartheid or racism but wanting to live separate and apart in peace and security is. I must be living in some RECERSE universe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

He don't really give a smack what you say because he is here from some Zionist propaganda team to troll this site and turn into a clone of Masada 2000! But keep talking cause he will blow his cool and one of this websites founder will have a chat with him and maybe will stop the Palestine and Nekba Denial!

Just hoping the best!

Hi - I think it would be best for everyone if you discussed the facts and sticked to them.  This site is not and should not be a bout personal attacks. If you dont agree say "why" you don't, try not to rant with things that are irrelevant and not condusive to a civil conversation.

Judenfrie yes but so was was the Jewish west Jerusalem tried to made Palifrie and still is! 

autistic.  West Jerusalem has Arabs living there. Lets not be confused by facts. It that your take?

autistic.

Do you believe that Islamopfascists and Holocaust denying individuals or groups should be able to ply their hatred on any site whether pro peace or  whether an anti Jew/Israel hating one?

Facts be damned!!!!!!

Dear Rabbi Lerner:  Your "high" moral stance falls flat on its face when you read the Hamas Charter and recognize that the intent of Hamas is to utterly destroy the Israeli military, culture, political system and economic system.  Have you read the Charter?  Why does it not influence your (enlightened) thinking?

Incidentally, as far as Fatah goes, Abbas Zaki, Fatah Central Committee Member, openly said (23 Sept.) that voiding the settlements is just a prelude to seeing to wipe out Israel but it's not "safe" to say so as the greater goal cannot be accomplished in one go.

I suppose, Rabbi, being so safe (until recently, at any rate) in the USA, you can preach from your high moral perch to those (Israelis) whose very existence is placed at extreme risk.  I wonder what kind of advocate you would have been to those European Jews in the era in which Hitler came and remained in power.  My guess is that you would have had them "recognize" and "accept" the Nazi regime and, having done so, all would have been right with the world.   

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