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The one thing that disturbs me in the imbalance of representation in Israel. Have we not shot ourselves in the foot with an all Jewish State Department Staff. If we are going have productive talks, there seems to be no one interested in the Palestinian plight. I feel the Staff should be balanced.
When I was in Jerusalem 2 years ago, all of the staff there was Jewish. There was one loan man in the Palestinian consulate who was not Jewish, he is in a diffiuclt position.

Will we ever learn?

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I found your posting complelling. I wonder if part of the problem is the extremist in all sects, christianinty, jew, muslim, hindu, etc...
Okay....this is where I am today with all the religions:
I believe that HE/SHE is far more creative than any human can understand. We truly can not know the capacity or HIS/HER love and grace. I think he wants us to love all as manifestations of himself/herself. HOWEVER we are human with narrow thinking. Along that line then, I wonder if we are not all fighting to be God's favorite kid? If I am God's favorite than you can't be, so I am better than you. The real scary feeling is, what if you are God's favorite kid, then that means I am not...so where does that leave me......Out and that is frightening.
So we make up all types of rules, beliefs and norms to prove we are the favorite and you are not.
So what do you think?
Hi Pamela,

Neri's post, in my view, would be compelling were The Jewish People one monolithic group. The Jewish People are NOT one monolithic group especially since Jews lived in many different places and within many self-contained groups within many different other cultures over the past 2000 years.

The amazing thing (for me) really is what remained as common despite the parallel existence of many different Jewish Communities who had relatively little contact with each other for a long time (because of the tyranny of distance).
So let me clarify:
You are saying the Jews are not one group so to speak, that they are spread throughout the world and in some instances have no communication with each other. So are you saying they are like any other religious group spread throughout the world?
I am confused....
pam
its a SHE.
Neri wrote: "the concept of Group do not help us o understand the social phenomena of tribe, family and Nations".

I disagree Neri.

Group is the simple collective name for social structures like tribe, nation, family and so on. Because humans are instinctively social beings (herd animals) herd is probably an even better collective name. All sociable human beings are members of many different herds, depending on context and (self-)interest. Humans (and other herd animals) learned a long time ago that we optimise our own survival by joining and being members of herds. This I think is a very basic and instinctive behavior.

I think Neri that you are simply focusing on the trees while I am talking about the whole forest.
Dear Paul

We have a seed
We have a soil
We have a tree
We have a forest
We have brides
We have rain
we have many other components with complex relationship. if you go to the rain forest you will find out that it influence the atmosphere and also that the shade from the grown trees are important for the creatures that live in the forest who serve the trees by helping their seed to hatch. a forest is a complex system,
This is all connected to a forest, this are different component in the complex entity of the forest.

Now I read you say - the forest (human kind) is equal to the some of the different type of trees (Nations) which is equal to the some the seeds (groups) so seeds are forest because all the trees come from seeds. so give me a seed (group) and I'll describe for you the forest (human culture) ... and that never done before because the seed (group) do not have the full components of trees (Nations) or forest (Human culture). hi and dont forget the forest is just a metaphor.

so now compare:



(assume you can see that there are at least different perspective of the forest and that there are different stages of complexity from seed, specific tree and a forest - the Human entity on this planet is a forest of ideas much more complex then a forest of trees which we know is a complex entity by itself)
Yes Neri. :-) What one considers to be a group depends on context.

  • I am a male ===> I am a member of the male group.
  • i live in Sydney ==> I am a member of thelive in Sydney group.
  • My mother was a Jewess ==> I am a member of the Jews group.
  • I was born in Hungary ==> I am a member of the born in Hungary group.
  • I have brown eyes ==> I am a member of the brown eyes group.
  • I do xxx, ==> I am a member of the do xxx.group.
  • And so on....
There are logical groups which can be created by declaring them, as "group of male".

Can you see that there are "group of groups" and the Australian National group includes most of Sydney group and some of the male group.

Can you see that the National group of Australia behaves in a different manner then the male group (you pay taxes to Australia but not to the male group).

Can you see that there is different affiliation of "jew group" and the "brown eyes group". you prefers the Jews over the brown eye group.

All what I am saying is that the entity group has different stages of complexity and the terms as Nations, people, family, tribe are different complexity different behavior and attributes. ignoring the difference in complexity misses much of what is important to a nation and the different "moral laws" governs the different groups.

for instance, in family you can get finance from your parents for ever, and they will be happy to continue do that. In national relationship this does not work, you need to pay your taxes in a national state. (see Saudi Arabia with its different model, no taxes and many princes ... this is not a nation this is a tribe). The model of modern national state is that you can become Australian as you did ... but in Israel this cannot work and a person who his parents born in jafa cannot get into israel nor accept nationality just because he/she is not part of the group you call Jews.
Hi Neri,

It is true that I did not write a complete essay. I think that you still do not understand what I am trying to communicate. Here is some more of what I think:

Whether I am or am not a member of a group depends on the context and the perspective. I use my membership of the group, The Jewish People, as the example:
  1. From my own perspective, I am a member of The Jewish People (group) only if I believe that I am.
  2. From others' perspective, I am a member of The Jewish People (group) only if those others believe that I am one, regardless whether I really am a Jew and regardless of whether those others are Jewish People.
  3. From other Jewish Peoples' perspective, I am a member of The Jewish People (group) only if those other Jewish People believe that I am one, regardless whether I really am a Jew.

Are you more or less confused now about what I am writing?

==PmR
Neri,

What I wrote has nothing to do with my world view. I wrote what I see as demonstrable facts.

You are writing about what you see as right or wrong. That is quite a different topic, which I will not respond to now. Facts and opinions (right or wrong) are rather different topics.

Be well...
==PmR
Dear Paul,

what we see through our world view is always seem as demonstrable facts. but I think it is also demonstrable fact that we all have a world view that interpret realty for us.

my opinion is that our right and wrong judgment is also "world view" related so I experience "world view" differences as a fact. do you?
HI Guysbr /> I am really enjoying your discussion and feel more enlightened. I do have a question and I am hoping to become more educated from your answers. The context: I am reading a book about the So African Stuggle in the 90's to end apartheid. There were many sub-parties to the orlginal conflict between the ANC and the National Party (deKlerks govt). Within all of the sub parties there were additional splits and absolutely no cohesive thought or platform. So here is my question:
Are there sub groups with both the Israeli Jewish Party and the Arab Israeli Party, that are having internal conflicts, can not come to a conscience, so the conflict spirals on? IN other words, there truly is not a united front from either party....
Thanks for your indulgence.....

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