State of Palestine and Approval of Building New Settlements

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Sussan on December 29, 2012 at 3:17am

I too, did not appreciate Arafat’s corruption, but these days, I tend to think it was exaggerated, deliberately exaggerated, by the extremists. The fact is, Palestine should have come into existence  shortly after Israel did, and the UN had a responsibility to nurture Palestine in a way that ensured good political practice emerged, not an underground PLO movement that was answerable to none but themselves.

I am sure Arafat’s corruption was greatly exaggerated, otherwise we would be shown more displays of his outrageousness.  Furthermore, I do not see how the man could ever have done anything other than what he did – from a political (not corruption) perspective. Likewise Abbas. Remember that old wheel chair guy, an Imam of some kind - the one who was squeaky clean – assassinated by the IDF!

It is an amazing miracle that Arafat survived as long as he did. Must have had God on his side!

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Permalink Reply by Tim Upham on December 29, 2012 at 4:59am

Arafat was under an enormous amount of scrutiny when he was alive, and President of the Palestinian Authority.  Investigations were launched by the United Nations and the United States Agency for International Development.  For it was discovered that this international aid went to supporting expatriate allies of his in Europe, and keeping his wife in a private penthouse in Paris.  Arafat answered to the press, "There is no money, so there is no corruption."  Which he took to the grave with him.  Sheikh Ahmed Yassin was a wheelchair-bound quadriplegic, but has was also the founder of Hamas, authored their hateful doctrine, and personally directed Hamas terrorist activities towards Israel, such as suicide bombings.  When I was in Israel in 2006, the country was rocked by suicide bombings.  When we look at the help of the Almighty, whether we want to address him as God, HaShem, or Allah we all want him on our side.  On our side for peace and coexistence with each other.  For it is definitely within the realm of all of us.  For we all can find it in the Bible, Tanakh and Qu'ran, that is if we want to find it.  For it is there, and if we enact it, then we are all enacting the word of God, HaShem, and Allah.

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Permalink Reply by David Friedfeld on December 31, 2012 at 3:46am

Sussan,

Thanks for your kind and thoughtful comments. For me, I am trying to understand the issues more, so
I may be of value to others in the implementation of peace in Isreal and Palestine.

I look at the original issue there as more of a nationalism movement that originated out of the 19th century post colonial world, for both Arabs and Jews. We saw many national movements worldwide, as the era of Empires was coming to an end. And, many nations came to be in that time, often with artificial boundaries that did not recognize the interests of all groups . Because these states were created this way, we have many problems worldwide today, and we have many current national movements, and issues with minority populations. Unfortunately, we also have violence and war .


I understand that your solution is a Single State. I often wonder what would have been the outcome if the 1947 Partition Plan would have been adopted by both sides. That was an interesting plan: two states, an open city in Jerusalem, and an economic union. Would there have been peace ?

If I understand your last comments correctly, Israel as an aggressor colonizing nation caused all of the issues we see presently today. And, as a result of the colonization , Palestians were forced from their homes, and now descendants of those original refugees are agitating and using violence to gain back land or compensation for property lost. If we agree that is the case, then it might seem that Isreal will choose to occupy the West Bank as you suggest. Personally, I am not so sure that will be a long term solution. As to unilateral Israeli withdrawal from the WB, I am not so sure that is a good solution either.

So, we cannot have an ideal solution. Hmmmm. That makes me want to think more. I assume there is someone here at mepeace.org that is working towards an acceptable --if not ideal-- solution. I myself, do not foresee another forty five years of occupation. Perhaps I am naive, or I do not understand all of the issues. I would think that if the Arab states embraced Israel in peace, and if Palestinian leadership did the same, I imagine there would be a path to discuss to a mutual solution. One side has to put down weapons first, as Sadat and King Hussein demonstrated. Of course, tne opposite could be stated. Specifically, if Israel encouraged open immigration of former residents who fled or were forced to leave in 1947,then accepted those refugees as citizens in a democratic state, it old seem that peace could have a better opportunity.

Sussan, as to you last comment about Israeli leadership never consulting the Paestinisns in a respectfulormeaningful manner, it is my hope that this website will lead many to a different conclusion. In my life I have been asked to build bridges that have been viewed as difficult. What I have learned is that is possible. Steven Covey states " seek first to understand, then to be understood"

The world is very complicated. It seems that peace is possible. If there is not an ideal solution, there must be an acceptable solution. So, I will continue to do my part. And, since we started with Waleed, my message to him is not to give up hope. Be stronger in hours that are darker !

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Permalink Reply by Tim Upham on December 31, 2012 at 4:33am

The only way I want to butt in on this conversation, is that in "The Times of Israel" they have an article that 67% of Israelis support a two-state solution.  So this 67% will be determining the outcome of the future Israeli elections.  Even an old warhorse like Benyamin Netanyahu is seriously challenging the Jewish Home Party, and have been criticizing Israeli security forces on the force removal of unauthorized settlements.  But it will be when and how this is applicable to all Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

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Permalink Reply by Sussan on December 31, 2012 at 1:26pm

Hello David, it is great to have you respond.

You are correct in your estimation that Zionism started out as a nationalist movement. Even more so, it was a utopian, idealist (pseudo-socialist) movement.  There were many other similar movements in 19^th Century. Zionism is the only one that survived, due to the fact that many of the Zionist leaders were not idealistic, rather they were ruthless, had exceptionally good contacts with powerful leaders in other countries, and were skilled in manipulating people for their own self-serving ends.

The 1947 Partition Plan was seriously flawed. It gave too much for the best land to the Jewish side. Although this is what the Jews specifically asked for, the large allocation of land may have been some kind a appeasement for not giving them Jerusalem, which is what the Zionists wanted above all else. The problem with Jerusalem was that it truly was an international city, and it was already known from Zionist behaviour that the Zionists would limit Muslim and Christian interaction in Jerusalem, if they had control of the city. For the Plan to work, it would have had to be a much smaller area that had a Jewish population that was also a significant majority. But even then, that was never the Zionist dream, so that would also have not worked. Jews were promised a Jewish country, and the average Jew had no awareness that there was already a substantial Arab population in the Holy Land. Polish Jews did know, and there were many in Poland who actively resisted Zionism, and then, during the war, Ben-Gurion refused to support financial endeavours to assist the Jews of Poland. He said the fund raising in the US could only be sufficient for one cause or the other – Poland or Palestine - and he was not going to tolerate cash going to Poland if he could manage to snuffle it for weapons to fight the Arabs.

 

The Israeli government has deliberately controlled and exploited the Palestinian side of the border to the extent that ‘Palestine’ has no infrastructure. For Palestine to become independent, the last 60 years should have been spent evolving a separate and viable set of financial structures. Instead, the modest independence they did have was deliberately ruined through bulldozing, land theft, skewed taxes, and malicious and exploitative control of imports and exports.

Of course, individual Jews probably had little (if any) awareness of what was happening, and those who arrived after 1948 could not possibly have known of the massive ethnic cleansing that occurred immediately prior to their arrival.

Individually, there is not much Jews could have done to stop this rollercoaster of events. Every Jew that arrived was a migrant who had been lied to. It takes a few years to get a fix on a situation like that, and even then, Israeli planners had been very thorough in disguising what had happened. Those Jews who had the insight to see what was happening, had little choice but to leave. It is not easy to migrate a 2^nd, or perhaps a 3^rd time. These kinds of decisions take a massive effort, and can easily lead to financial ruin for even successful families. 

 

Always, the rich and powerful exploit the vulnerable. Wealthy individuals within the USA are largely responsible for everything that has gone wrong in the Holy land. 

You could blame the Zionists.    Ben-Gurion, Begin and Golda Meir knowingly orchestrated the committing of many atrocities. When Israel declared their independence, a massive number of refugees had already been forced out of their homes and across the border. Officials in the USA knew this. Israel should have been stopped in her tracks at that very moment.

The media too, has much to answer for; it has been lazy and negligent in its presumed role to inform the public. However, it is the rich who advertise and support the media, and they do not take well to adverse news.

In those times, (1948) there was a much bigger divide between the Arab world and the West, and this too, made it virtually impossible for the media to appreciate what was happening, let alone actually report on these events. I remember the way the ’67 war was reported; journalists failed to ask key questions, failed to present key facts. It is as though they did not care; certainly they were ignorant of the truth. However, the people who bought their papers did care, and did want to know the truth. It was also impossible to find books about Palestine maybe that is why the journalists seems to know nothing.

Israel got off to a robust start, back in 1948, because they were able to exploit all the assets and possessions of the Arabs who were made homeless and landless. Bringing the refugees in from the cold is not going to be so easy, even with the assistance of Arab Oil money. But I suspect these refugees will be willing to make do, provided they have their freedom and respect and dignity.

 

EQUALITY for everyone is the only policy that will bring an end to the sniping, and create stability, but there are many who will not accept this change of values. 

I suspect the Palestinians will continue to languish for quite some time yet, whilst the world starts to reflect more realistically on the reality of what has happened.

This is only one view of the situation in the Middle East. There are as many views as there are people. No one has the whole picture. 

I much prefer to not rant so much ... apologies. 

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Permalink Reply by David Friedfeld on December 31, 2012 at 4:08am

Farsijana,

You raised an interesting point in this discussion. Specifically, the close relationship between the Israeli Jews and the Palestinian Arabs. In many studies , it has been demonstrated that there is a very close genetic link that Palestinian men have in common with Jewish men. No doubt, when the Arab armies came to Palestine over 1500 years ago, you can be sure that Jewish families living there in what was the former Roman Empire, converted to Islam. As well, when the Crusaders came 1000 years ago, these same Muslims ( formerly Jews) converted to Christianity.

So, there can be no arguing about the genetic relatedness of many of the present day inhabitants. Another interesting discussion point.

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Permalink Reply by Farsijana Adeney-Risakotta on January 1, 2013 at 4:50pm

Dear David Friedfeld,

Thanks for your explanation. I would like to know if you could answer my question. When was the word of Palestine appeared in the context of middle east? Is the Palestine the same with the word of Filistin as I found in the Bible? Thank you in advance. Salam. f

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Permalink Reply by Tim Upham on January 1, 2013 at 9:22pm

The name "Peleset" was used by the ancient Egyptians starting around 1150 B.C.E. to describe the land beyond the Sinai.  The Hebrew name "Peleshet" is mentioned in the Tanakh 250 times, but mostly to designate present-day Gaza, where the Philistines lived.  It is believed the Philistines originally came from Crete, and headed out to the Levant after either invasion or devastating earthquake.  Ancient Egyptian records will refer to them as the "Sea People."  The Eastern Roman Empire, turned into the Byzantine Empire, where Greek was the language of trade and commerce.  So the region took on the Greek pronunciation of "Palaestina."  Mohammed was on the caravan between Damascus to Mecca, and caravan raiding was a very important part of the economies of the Arabian tribes.  Mohammed devised the "hudna" or truce where they would not raid each others caravans.  So this took the Arabian tribes up into Persian and Byzantine territory to raid their caravans instead.  Todays Palestinians are descendants of those caravan raiders, and the Byzantine name of Palaestina, passed on to the Ottoman Empire as Palestine.

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Permalink Reply by Yitzhak Frankenthal on January 1, 2013 at 4:57pm

I'm new to this site and I find this discussion most interesting. I have recently posted an article reviewing the response to the matter of the building in Jerusalem on Israeli and Palestinian media. You are welcome to check out my input on the matter there. I'll be glad to hear your feedback! 

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Permalink Reply by Tim Upham on January 1, 2013 at 10:04pm

I have worked with a great deal of non-government organizations in Israel, the West Bank, Gaza, and the United States before.  But I have never heard of "Peace We Can."  What is the age and influence of this particular organization?

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Permalink Reply by Sussan on January 2, 2013 at 8:07am

Tim, we need all the peace groups we can get. ‘Peace We Can’, may be only one more group, but it is going to help, because it is composed of a group of people who have put a huge effort into examining the issues, informing themselves of the facts, and then posting up those facts. When you do things like that, even your Granny is going to be favourably influenced. Not only your Granny, but your Granny’s friends will also be impressed, and they will make their judgments on your overall level of integrity.

Every little bit helps, not just with Palestine and Israel, but for every future conflict that is yet to occur. Some of those NGO’s you referred to Tim, are not doing half enough – especially Amnesty, whose silence speaks of their complicity. There are some NGO’s who do little other than keep the conflict in a holding pattern. This just wastes people’s lives, and leads to further destruction.

‘Peace We Can’ would be welcome to start their own discussions to mepeace, and if Yitzhak Frankanthal wants to, he could create a sub-group on mepeace and call it ‘Peace We Can’. There is a very good chance the group will, at some point, be profiled.

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Permalink Reply by Tim Upham on January 2, 2013 at 9:13am

I got into the page that Yitzhak has to offer, so my initiation to the organization has began.  But I am surprised with all the organizations I have worked with in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza I have never heard of this particular one before.  But you can always learn something from all of them.

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