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State of Palestine and Approval of Building New Settlements

On November 29, 2012 "The International Day of Solidarity with Palestine" the United Nations General Assembly approved Palestine as a non-member state .. This means that Palestine is recognized as a state after 18 years of being known as "Palestinian Territory" .. One day after the vote The Israeli government started announcing new plans to build more settler houses and extend some settlements especially in East Jerusalem .. 

 

Three days ago the Israeli government approved building 3,000 settler houses in East Jerusalem .. The Israeli government approved building 3,600 new settler houses in East Jerusalem yesterday .. A new plan to build 1,600 settler houses might be approved next week .. Israel has kept building the settlements by confiscating Palestinian lands .. I wonder whether two-state solution is still alive and the opportunity to make the "State of Palestine" exist on ground is available .. 



I'm disappointed and hopeless with respect to the "State of Palestine"

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You hit the nail right on the head, when you said "current needs."  An American Jewish activist had a meeting with Yasir Arafat, and Arafat said to him "We are related."  Citing the genetic similarities between Jews and Arabs.  But that is an esoteric that can just be brushed aside.  But also in the Spanish Civil War, it was Spaniards killing Spaniards, and in the Syrian Civil War, it is Syrians killing Syrians.  So political and religious differences greatly overshadow the concept of "We are all brothers and sisters."  This is when economics comes into the picture.  One of the demands Hamas had, and received was easing the Israeli restrictions on Gaza.  Which Israel allowed by letting Palestinian farmers to get closer to the border with Israel, and Palestinian fishermen to go out further to sea.  So we just cannot rely on the esoteric alone, for there are many other factors as well.

This is why siblings need to sit to talk on how to share their resources equally. Talk has to be followed by a consensus that represents the needs of all parties. The case of Pelestine-Israel remains an unfinished  solution might be determined by the interests of outsiders to what extend the people suppose to look like. Israel which seems gaining its independence to run its own country might be depended on the powerful countries around it. I wonder how far the roles of USA to shape the regional politics in area. Can common siblings talk to challenge the macro poltiics around them? I wonder whether the common people like Israeli and Palestine dare to have their proposals to their governments to show their concern to the society and to inisiate a peaceful solution to both sides? 

You know one way we can really use you, is to post discussions about Islam's involvement in the peace process.  I have tried to do that, it was disastrous.  Because the Jewish extremists just got on here, and just endlessly talked about how Islam is a religion of hate, and a religion of war.  Fortunately, those people have been removed.  But it is like a said, Hamas Doctrine is not really based Islam, but extremist nationalism.  We need to separate Islam from extremist nationalism.  We can separate Judaism from Jewish extremism, because the Jewish extremists knew nothing about Judaism.

The question raised by Waleed, was whether the two state solution was dead based on additional Isreali settlement in the West Bank , following the UN vote upgrading the Palestinian status at the UN and in the community of nations.

I would like to purpose a slightly different question. Why do we think that a two state solution is dead if Isrealis who are currently settled in the West Bank will continue to live in the West Bank--future state of Palestine ? Perhaps I am naive, but I imagine that after Palestine is established-- and I see this as a fact - Jews will be able to live there in peace with their Palestinian neighbors. Can't Canadians live in the USA ?

Am I further naive that if necessary, Jerusalem can be a shared city. Clearly , it is significant to both peoples. Where there is a will to accomplish, there is always a way. If Jerasalem cannot be shared in some manner, of course access has to be free to anyone wishing to pray in peace and live and work in peace. Both sides will have to yield.

Would it be reasonable for Palestinians to accept a "limited right of return" into Isreal, plus a plan that would compensate any Palestinian family that has demonstrable financial or real estate claims arising out of the 1947-49 period which created both the state of Isreal and the current issues ?

And finally, why don't we all recognize a simple and obvious opportunity. The Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza and the Palestinian diaspora population have less chance of achieving a viable state while engaged in war and violence. Engaging in an immediate and firm and forever cessation of these activities (which only fuel the conflict), will foster a positive path for peace and a Palestiinian state alongside of an Isreali state. The immediate demilitarization of the Palestians engaged in warring activities BY A RESPNONSIBLE PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT BODY will be a big step in settling the conflict and a huge confidence booster to Isrealis .

Hello David. Canadians are able to live in America because USA and Canada share a treaty that allows for citizens of both countries to live in each other’s country. If Israel and Palestine had a similar treaty, all Palestinian refugees would be able to live in Israel. Until there is such an agreement, Palestinians are unlikely to accept Israelis on their soil, since the arrangement is not reciprocal. However, a reciprocal arrangement would be welcomed by Palestinians.

Israeli settlements are on land that has never been purchased. This land is legally owned by Palestinians, and they will be claiming back their land at the first available opportunity. They might consider selling in on, but it will go to the highest bidder, which is not likely to be any of those settlers, who are all maxed out, and living on land of premium value.

It is NOT reasonable to ask the Palestinians to accept a "limited right of return" into Israel. These people were forced to leave their homes, work and businesses for no good reason. They have the right to claim back ALL their property, with full compensation for financial losses sustained over 65 years. This is a UN sanctioned right. Not a God-given right.

Palestinian refugees have lived without proper citizenship documents for over 65 years. The lack of these documents makes it extremely difficult to travel, work and raise a family. Those living on the fringe of Israel have not only been unemployed and unable to travel, many have been unable to provide a home for their families, and have often had the houses they built, bulldozed.

All this loss of property entitles Palestinians to full and proper compensation. Israel is 100% responsible for the plight of these refugees.

Israel is a wealthy country. Israel can afford to pay, and this payment and repatriation will be a significant part of a peace settlement.

Last time a large number of Americans were in Canada, was the Vietnam-era draft dodgers during the 1960's, and that was a headache for Canada, because many were there illegally.  But besides that, there have never been a noticeable number of Canadians in the United States, and a noticeable number of Americans in Canada.  When we look at the Palestinians, the majority of them were born after 1948.  So they would not be packing their bags and going back to Jerusalem, and saying "Ah We Are Home."  But cross border exchange, would have to be the catalyst of an Israeli-Palestinian peace treaty, especially getting from the West Bank to Gaza.  With the Israeli settlers in the West Bank, Israel would have to make the decision to either return them back to Israel, or let them stay and become citizens of Palestine.  That of course needs to be ironed out.  The Israeli settlers in the West Bank, work high paying jobs in Tel-Aviv,  Netanya, and Haifa, so they would be providing important tax revenue for the Palestinian Authority.  But Areas A, B, and C of the West Bank must all be united into a united West Bank.

If it is possible for Jews who did not live in the Holy Land for 2000 years to ‘return’ to the Holy land and say: "Ah We Are Home”; then it is equally possible for Arabs who have not lived Palestine for ONLY one generation to return and say: "Ah We Are Home”.  Especially since so many of those refugees have had no citizenship papers since they were thrown out of their homes by Jews.

There will be no exchange of Arabs from Israel to the West Bank. Either the families of those Arabs who were expelled will return to their original places or residence and be provided with proper housing; or they will be paid out, handsomely. Alternatively,  Israel could return to the Partition Plan borders.

These are the issues, among others that will be discussed, and agreed to; when Israel decides it is time to make a proper peace settlement.

But let us look at the present.  For the Israelis living there it is home, that is a given.  That is the reason why an independent Palestine needs to be created, so the Palestinians living there will have citizenship.  Because living in surrounding countries, they do not have citizenship, only entry visas, which allows them to leave and return.  But I am confused, you are saying that Arabs already living in Israel, will take in the Palestinians from surrounding countries, into their homes?  Please clarify.  But you hit the nail right on the head, when you said Israel needs to return to the Partition Plan borders.  For those borders are something that both Israel and the Palestinian Authority needs to be pressured into accepting.

Hi Tim, I am an outsider, as far as Palestine goes. I became active on the internet when I saw Palestinians attempting to communicate their problems in broken English, and in return those Palestinians were being treated with contempt by Israeli Jews, who were telling the most outrageous lies.

Even then, I remember spending 3 weeks thinking about whether or not to get involved; because although I was passionate about seeing Palestinian justice, I knew getting involved was going to consume many hours, and much effort.  My biggest surprise was to find that I was more familiar with the early history of Israel than Israelis.

It is not appropriate for me to give any hard and fast interpretations that affect the lives of others, but I am reasonably sure there can never be a 2 State Solution. The whole project was doomed to failure the day the UN awarded so much of the best Palestinian land to the minority group. The UN allocated to the Zionists much of the land the Zionists had asked for.

Zionists have never been able to secure a numerical majority. It would seem that many times they were on the verge of succeeding, but no matter how many Jews they attracted to Israel, the overall number of descendants of Palestinians still outnumbers the Jewish population. In democratic terms, we all know what that means.

Israel has always been obligated to settle up with the Arabs, who wanted to return. I doubt that those people were ever going to accept anything but an actual return, but there must have been a period when the majority would have accepted a payout, if a sensible offer had been made.

When I am provocative, and say things like ‘Israelis will have to return to the partition Plan border’, it is for the purpose of getting Israelis to think seriously about what has happened; what they are essentially responsible for.

I believe everything I say, and there is much I have never said.

 

I come into this from an extremely different angle, than were you come from.  I used to do extensive traveling, but had to stop it after a bout with cancer left me impaired.  So now I rely on the internet.  I have been to Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza numerous times, and in doing so one of the organizations I worked with was Families of Bereaved.  If you had ever had a chance to hear some of their stories, you would wonder what is it that lets these people go on?  They are both Israelis and Palestinians.  All of them, have had relatives murdered by the other side.  Palestinians who had their children killed by the IDF, Israelis who had some relative killed in a terrorist attack, both who had a relative killed in a cross-fire.  When you hear this, then how can you take sides over who is right and who is wrong?  Simple, you cannot.  For it just makes me sick, when I hear people taking sides.  I just absolutely despised the Jewish extremists, they had on this website who glorified taking sides.  When a dead child is being buried, can you justify that it was right or wrong, that this child was Israeli or Palestinian?  I have seen both bury their children. But that is the problem how is a pompous elitist sitting at a keyboard in Florida or Central Canada, going to able to identify with that?  Or let alone even care?  Speaking at forums and on-line, I have been torn to shreds.  Called every conceivable name possible.  But why do I do it?  Simple, I want this to end, and the only way it will end, is if people can stop dehumanizing each other so badly, and always taking sides on who is right and who is wrong.    For that is where we start, we treat each other for what we all are:  human beings.

Hi all,

I have been following the middle east, and in particular Isreal/ Palestine for over forty years. . I have travelled in the area , and had frank discussions with many inhabitants. As we all know, the issues are not easy to address and everyone will not be pleased with particular solutions.

Several months ago, I was on the Internet when I came across the obituary for a great leader in the peace movement. Reading more, I came to this site and registered. My thought was to engage in some dialog tnat was new,fresh, and hopeful.

When I read Waleed's post, I was saddened. I felt what Waleed felt.

However, I was not hopeless. Perhaps I do not understand all the nuances . Perhaps I was raised an eternal optimist. Perhaps it was that cab ride across the Sinai with three young Palestinisn Arabs in 1980 who all advised me that both peoples could live in the land. That was the summer after I travelled with a young Iranian on his way back to the Revolution in his country.

When I wrote my first post, my response was to Waleed's heart.

I look forward to a day in Isreal/Palestine when both peoples can live in peace and secure in their mutual safety. I know this is possible

I think for all of us to accept that premise, we have to all compromise and see a bigger picture. I may not have made my points clear, as I am used to an evening of talk, food and drink. In fact , I proposed four simple concepts of a two state solution which have not been addressed:

1. An Isreal and a Palestine side by side
2. A shared Jerusalem
3. A solution to the Palestinian refugee issue
4. A cessation to specific acts of terror aimed at Isreal

These ideas are not novel. And as I said, I may not have expressed myself eloquently. Clearly , the issues raise passion on both sides. BUT, if the purpose of this group is to seek peace, then I would propose that we begin to look at HOW do we move our respective camps in the direction of peace and compromise. That will be our answer.

I live in an America where all things good are possible when there is a will to do good. I believe he same s true in the world, and I look forward . Have faith and hope Waleed.

Respectfully submitted, DF

Mepeace.org has a long list of organizations.  I would highly recommend to you to get in contact with them, while you are over there.  First of all, to find out that they are for real, and second of all, to met both Israelis and Palestinians who are striving for peace and coexistence.  Many of these organizations have affiliates in the United States, because they realize how powerful the American lobby is.  But doing so can really change your life, and start making you into a "Warrior for Peace."

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