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If you read the bible you will see that God chose the Israelites to set an example for mankind to follow and God gave them instructions by way of commandments and covenants as a guide. Once they followed these instructions the human race would follow and salvation would be at hand for all.

 

The Lord said:

 

(Deu 11:26 KJV)  Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

 

(Exo 19:5 KJV) Now therefore,  if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

 

(Deu 28:58 KJV)  If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;

 

(Deu 28:64 KJV)  And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

 

Demographics show us that the Jewish people are indeed scattered throughout the world

 

(Deu 28:25 KJV) The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.

 

According to a 2002 study by the Jewish Agency, "the number of Jews in the world is declining at an average of 50,000 per year."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population

 

The Lord said if you do not harkin to my word I will curse you--

 

 Persecution of Jews has occurred on numerous occasions and at widely different geographical locations. As well as being a major component in Jewish history

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

 

As a Christian I started this thread more for my own understanding than for others. All I am doing here is posting a few biblical verses that many here have already read. In my youth I had passed over this part of the Bible and started my religious understanding in the New Testament. Now in my 60’s I felt I needed to review what I had believed from my past teachings and in this review take a more broad look at what God had said. No one has to read this thread and no one has to make comments. I personally don’t think it is preaching to pull out some verses and compare them to current and past events. This is how we learn and improve on our true understanding.

 

I have removed my personal interpretation of these verses because I don’t want to be seen as preaching but if anyone here has an opinion pro or con then please post it. I assure you I will not redact your post and accuse you of preaching. For anyone who makes any comments about anything can be accused of preaching and this I will not do to you. You have a right to express your feelings and I will not stand in your way.

 

I have started an essay to cover this  and you can read it at the link below

 

http://www.universalknowledge.net/

 

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I am a Christian and I showed some of my Christian friends the video below and they told me that my job was not to judge them but to forgive them for what they had done. All I ask is that you look at the video below and ask yourself, can I forgive them for this--?

Israeli Commandos Execute American Citizen
Israeli soldiers allegedly killing Furkan Dogan 19 years
http://www.countercurrents.org/dogan110610.htm

The 19-year-old American activists was shot three times with a shotgun at a range of 3 feet. Clearly this was murder.

After seeing this video my answer is NO. God can forgive them but I cannot.

Can you-?
This really amazes me, this forum topic is Middle East peace, I create a forum to discuss the root causes of this unrest and a solution to it and I get no responses.

What is everyone so afraid of, the truth perhaps-?
“Mepeace supports interfaith dialogue and has done so, but it if is preaching or appearing to preach it doesn't follow the guidelines.”

Gosh I must apologize, I had no idea that this thread was preaching. I was only pointing out some biblical verses. Just so I don’t step into this mess again what exactly was I saying that came across as preaching-?

I am not trying to be argumentative I just want to be clear in my own thinking what is preaching and what isn’t. Without getting upset about my question would you please answer this for me-?
Sholem aleichem Thomas,

I find it hard to imagine that you did not know you were preaching when you wrote:

The Israelis need to re-read the bible, write down the commandments and covenants and practice them.

But the main thing I want to say is that in my view your "path to salvation" post is directly contrary to the biblical teaching you meant to champion.

Keep in mind that while the Hebrew Bible may be a body of Divinely inspired scripture (as you and I believe it to be), it is also the national literature of the ancient Jews/Hebrews/Israelites. The only reason you know of it at all is because Jews continued to scribe it and carry it with them, and teach it to their children, for many generations. We do this even though it is not always flattering to us, because we think G!d is trying to teach us through it to critically examine our own behavior and take responsibility. The in-depth learning of that lesson over the centuries is one reason there are so many Jews in Israel, in the USA, and around the world, working diligently to change the way the state of Israel behaves toward the Palestinian people.

If you come along and read this scripture and think it is teaching you to join the rest of the world in criticizing the behavior and attitudes of "the Jews," then you are turning it into its exact opposite. Because if you, too, believe it is sacred scripture with a message from G!d for you, then its message to you is the same as what it says to us: to look carefully at your own behavior - at the beam in your own eye. Not to project your critical and prophetic faculties outward by berating the very people that have kept that teaching alive for you.

Love and blessings,
-Hayyim
Hayyim said: “But the main thing I want to say is that in my view your "path to salvation" post is directly contrary to the biblical teaching you meant to champion. If you come along and read this scripture and think it is teaching you to join the rest of the world in criticizing the behavior and attitudes of "the Jews," then you are turning it into its exact opposite.”

I am sorry but I must be blind. I do not see where posting a few biblical verses is contrary to biblical teaching. How can you learn if you do not look at the past--? And last but not least I am not “criticizing the behavior and attitudes of "the Jews," I have Jewish friends and lumping them all under one umbrella is disingenuous at best. It is frankly a kind of racism to do so.

Those verses are not my words and having said that I can see that there are a few here who do not want to discuss this and would rather pretend that they do not exist. That is ok by me, the world is not going to change one way or the other because of this and this thread will be seen by two or three people and then be forgotten. So what harm have I done-?

In closing I can see that there is a strong bias here and open and free discussion is forbidden unless the point of view coincides with the crowd.

God Bless you all
I have removed my personal interpretation of these verses

So much for free and open discussion. At least you make clear who it is that would rather pretend that certain words don't exist.

lumping them all under one umbrella is disingenuous at best. It is frankly a kind of racism to do so.

I quite agree, whether you call us Jews or Israelites.

Blessings for a speedy and complete recovery,
-Hayyim
There are three (3) possible outcomes to this tragedy—

Outcome Number 1
The Israelis will continue to entrench themselves in their own world view pushing away any kind of reconciliation believing that time is on their side and eventually, at some point in the future the Palestinians will give up and leave or die out. And when that day comes the Israelis will rejoice and dance in the streets as they occupy the lands once occupied by the Palestinians chanting this is g-d’s plan we are just complying with His wishes so don’t blame us. We are just doing what the Lord wanted us to do all along.

Outcome Number 2
The Palestinian population continues to grow even under the harsh apartheid domination of the Israeli oppression while at the same time the Jewish population remains basically stagnate. And at the same time the neighboring Muslim countries grow and become stronger and stronger as the years go by until one day the US is unable to shield Israel from their wrath and Israel is overrun in a brutal rampage that leaves no Jewish Israeli left standing.

Outcome Number 3
After self-reflection and without duress or threats of violence, the Israelis come to grips with themselves and the Palestinian people and unanimously agree that it is time for peace once and for all. The Israeli government then reaches out to the Muslim world through a UN forum, asks for forgiveness and offers an unconditional peace agreement that gives the Palestinians their state while agreeing to withdraw all the illegal settlements. They even agree to share Jerusalem and make it an international city free for all to visit and see. In exchange the Israelis ask the Muslim communities to sign a peace treaty that guarantees the rights of the Israeli people to live in peace with open and free trade so that both sides can grow and flourish in peace and harmony. The Muslim community agrees, and in return asks the Israelis for forgiveness as well. Treaties are singed and peace returns to the Holy Lands marking the historical beginning of tranquility and peace for all to live and see.


I pray for outcome #3, which outcome do you see heading our way--?
To be honest, Thomas, what I see heading my way at the moment is the light of your loving heart trying its best to shine out on the world despite all the muck of despair, anger, anti-Jewish bias, and projecting of responsibility onto others, that the world has slathered over it so thickly. And that gives me hope.

Your beautifully depicted #3 depends on Israeli Jews to "unanimously" undergo a kind of conversion experience of atonement. I would be thrilled. And it is right to call on Israel to begin to implement such a change of consciousness because it is the stronger power in its conflict with Palestinians (tho not so clearly so in relation to the Arab and Muslim world, as you also suggest). But it would also be right to call on the Palestinians, who are most in need of such a shift, to initiate it, and to call on the Arab and Muslim and European states that are most responsible for the fear that drives Israelis toward militarism and recalcitrance, and on the U.S. that sets the model for the whole world wherein domination remains the core principle of relations among peoples, all to do the same,

But really, before we can call on any of these or other parties to begin the change of consciousness, the atonement, the teshuvah (which is, perhaps paradoxically, always accompanied by hope and joy) that is essential not only for Israel-Palestinian peace but for all our survival, each of us must take the first of first steps by working continuously to bring about that transformation within him- or herself.

And that cannot be done while always proclaimiing it someone else's responsibility; not even the Jews, Israelites, Israelis, or zionists. I invite you, Thomas, to start looking in the mirror - as the verses you began with beckon us to do - and I'll be right there alongside you.

Blessings,
-Hayyim
Hayyim Feldman

I sincerely appreciate your post and your advice and having said that I just remind you that I am a gentile. The verses I listed in the opening of this thread were not directed at me. I am-- let’s say-- a bystander in all of this. God’s plan for me is not the same as it is for those with whom He was addressing in those verses.

When God said—

(Exo 19:5 KJV) Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

I am not the “ye” above and never will be no matter how hard I try. I am what I am.

You said: “But it would also be right to call on the Palestinians, who are most in need of such a shift, to initiate it”

Why do you pass the buck onto the Palestinians and say that it is their duty to “initiate it”--?
*** Didn’t Arafat stand before the UN general assembly and state for all to hear that the Palestinians could live side by side with Israel in peace-?
*** Didn’t the Arab League unanimously state that they would normalize relations with Israel if Israel removed the illegal settlements and allow the Palestinians to conduct their own lives their own way without Israel interference--?
*** Wasn’t it Yitzhak Rabin who came within an inch of forging a real peace with the Palestinians only to be assassinated by one of his own-?

The answer to the above questions -- is -- YES

In this thread I was just trying to get a few people to do as you asked me to do, to take a look in the mirror. But when I say it I am preaching, when you say it to me it is just advice from one friend to another. Am I seeing hypocrisy here or is it just me, blind to the truth, unwilling to exercise self-reflection-?

Please, you tell me
Who is passing the buck, Thomas? The Jew (me) who says that it is proper to call (and who persistently does call) on Israel, and Jews, and Palestinians, and Arabs, and Muslims, and Europeans and Americans (Christendom), to atone and to do it now, without waiting for some other party to go first? Or the Christian (you) whose country's leadership is neck-deep in the Israel-Palestine mess, but who asserts that it is only Israeli Jews (which he himself is not) who must be first to express unconditional contrition? The first step in "trying to get [someone] to take a look in the mirror," my friend, is - no surprise - to take a look in the mirror!

You appear to be a Christian who takes the words of the Bible seriously. Do you not consider yourself part of what the apostle Paul called "Israel of the spirit" - not superceding the fleshly Israel, but grafted onto it like a branch onto a tree? Do you not understand yourself and your church - and, for that matter, all children of Noah - to be in covenant (testament) with G!d, obligated to heed G!d's voice? You wrote:

God’s plan for me is not the same as it is for those with whom He was addressing in those verses.

If that is so, you might do well to stop obsessing about G!d's plan for me and mine, and start attending to G!d's expectations for you and the communities you are part of. But even if you prefer to avoid thinking about those ("unwilling to exercise self-reflection," as you said), I encourage you to get your nose out of my people's relationship with G!d, because that's between G!d and us. Frankly, it's none of your business, and your one-sided, judgmental focus on it stinks of Jew-hatred, whether that is its root or not. Not to mention it keeps you from doing your own spiritual and emancipatory work on behalf of Palesinians or anyone else.

Love and blessings,
-Hayyim
Hayyim Feldman said: “I encourage you to get your nose out of my people's relationship with G!d, because that's between G!d and us. Frankly, it's none of your business”

Oh so you say it’s none of my business. This is what God said:

(Num 35:15 KJV) These six cities shall be a refuge, both for the children of Israel, and for the stranger, and for the sojourner among them: that every one that killeth any person unawares may flee thither.
(Lev 19:33 KJV) And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
(Deu 10:19 KJV) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
(Lev 19:34 KJV) But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself

So which is it Hayyim Feldman , do you love me or do you hate instead-? No wait you have already answered that question when you said:

“your one-sided, judgmental focus on it stinks of Jew-hatred, whether that is its root or not.”

I haven’t expressed any hatred towards anyone, not even Jews but you ooze with it. Without preaching I suggest you do as you tell me to do, take a good look in the mirror.

Read the verses above and ask yourself, do you love the Palestinian as one born among you, and love him as yourself-?

You don’t have to answer this, I am just curious and if you decide not to that is ok too --?

ps I can assure you that if you spell the Lord’s name “God” instead of “G!d” He will not be offended. In fact He might even appreciate is since the word “G!d” is not even a word and means nothing and believe me God is more than nothing in fact He is everything which is just the opposite of what you portray Him to be.

In closing I don’t want to fight with you or pass condemnations back and forth, I truly want to get to know you and understand where you are coming from and in the process you may be able to clear up some misunderstands that I have in the process. So don’t slam the door in my face, keep it open and let’s see what passes through.
I'm not thrilled about God having Jerusalem busted up, the women raped, and people spread out all over the world...But I am no God and maybe that causes me my failure to see the logic behind always punishing the innocent.

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