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The settlement is the silent killer of the Palestinian lands

The settlement's is strang houses in the Palestinian territories borders of it is a fence extending without a legitimate right to include the neighboring Palestinian territories


If we can expose those responsible for these acts to the Public then and only then we can reach an agreement about this issue

 

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The 'two-state solution' as conceived by both the 'Left' and the 'Right', is basically dead in the water. This is my opinion. However the Palestinian state that the Israeli Left wanted to see, would have been free of Israeli Jews (settlers). Also the Right wing conceived of the Palestinian state as free of Jews and therefor opposed it. However Two states that are both democracies is still a possibility. In this scenario most of the settlers would remain, not as colonizers but as neighbors, Israeli citizens resident in Palestine. All Palestinians would also have the right to live in Israel. Thus we end up with two states, one Jewish in character, one Palestinian Arab in character, but with mixed populations.

It's another 'solution'. All I am trying to get across to you Sandra is that there are no ultimate, final, or ONLY solutions. There is a spectrum of possibilities and so long as the one we gravitate to provides for justice and democracy, it really doesn't matter which scenario prevails.

Both the USA and Canada are democracies (sort of). Are you equal to a Canadian? NO. When a Canadian comes to visit you in New York, you have more rights as a local citizen. Should Canada and the US become one state - NO, the citizens of both countries want to retain the character of their culture. In Israel/Palestine the cultural/religious/linguistic gap is much greater so two states with a more or less open border might be best. Keep in mind that Canada and the US do not have an open border, so what I'm suggesting is more liberal than what you have in North America.
Sandra - I am not against a one-state scenario. It's just unlikely in our present circumstances. The majority of Palestinians who live in Palestine are ready for their own state. Keep in mind that most citizens of Jordan are also Palestinian Arabs. Should Jordan also be part on the 'one state'. There were no nation-states in most of the the Middle East prior to 1918, just the Ottoman Empire. All the states in the region are artificial, created by European powers after the 1st World War.

Sandra,

 You do not say you support Hamas, you say you support Justice ... but who is the one to declair what is the Justice when Palestinians rulling by Hamas declaring to destroy Israel fire misslies on civilians ?

 

 There will not be justice if we cannot create conditions for managing resources and supporting rights. the "justice" word is abused and mean only that you think Israel as a Jewish state should disapear and has no right to protect its attributes.

 

There are many ways to do justice, to demand "right of return" for million of Palestinians most of them are anti-zionists to be citizens of Israel is not a path that can sustain Israel as jewish.

 

(BTW, I am not zionist nor it is important to me that Israel will be jewish, but I am israeli and the social change must be moderate to prevent more violance that you wish to blame on the Israelis instead of supporting a Palestinian state beside Israel, where it will not be the best justice, it will be the most practical)

 

 

i wish to add some remarks

1) i think that israelis and palestinians are not the same, they have different cultural elements that make the conflict that was created by the zionist movment hard to solve in one state solution. The many years of israeli control and different cultural roots create tension we must overcome slowly. This mean that we (israelis and palestinians) need a stage of palestinian national state to strengthen the palestinians. If we have one state i fear that the jewish economic strength will lead to more abuse of the palestinians. In future a one entity of cofederation will serve the israelis to get out from their "jewish centric" mind set and help the palestinians to accept the israeli jews as "our jews" while it enable both to manage religious radicals and economic justice failurs.

2) setelments did and do a lot harm but at the moment when we have opertunity for agreement, we better let them build and work from "palestinian interests" when we form agreements, using the settelment now for attacking israel as "supporters of settelments" weaken our ability to get agreement. i say, let them build, and when we have agreement we will breake the wall and remove settelments from the land that ought to be palestine.

3) if one is for one state solution he actually give justification for enable the settelements as it all be palestine/israel. the justification for removing the settelments is for creating a palestinian state withing sustainable borders that can support the palestinian economic and social needs.
Neri -
1) "not the same". The Negev Bedouin, Ultra-orthodox (Haredim) and Tel Avivi Jews are not the same but we are all citizens of the same state. I get along just fine with most Palestinians. Maybe you should get out more . . . .

2) It's naive to think that the Israeli government is building settlements as bargaining chips. We are building settlements because we want to retain as much land as possible, allowing only truncated, disconnected Palestinian areas to become the second 'state'. It will not work.

3) In a democratic one-state solution, the settlements, and Israeli cities such as Modi'in should become open cities like in other democracies, where Jews or Arabs can live. What's wrong with opening Ma'ale Adumim and Ariel to Palestinians, even now, before an agreement?
Dear Fred,

1) we see it differently for sure. I am same as person as any other person in respect of rights etc. as I am equal to you to judge reality and get different understanding then you :)

The difference is in many other aspects and while we agree that we need to bring change reality and make these community equal we also should respect their culture and differences that come out not only with food but also with economic social culture that create gaps and tensions.

BTW, here I am getting along with my palestinian friends, (the part that I go through the passage of Klandia with them is not documented :) )


this we do in Tel-Aviv, Tyberia and Acca.

2) I disagree with you as I think that the Israeli system is more complex then "government decision is the only source of action". Israel politics and forces are complex and the "settlement movment" is not a government nor Israel representative, it is an influencial movement in israel bur far from being majority.

I agree with you that it would not work and we had few prime ministers so far who tryed to get to border agreement with "painful decision" as the one Israel had in Gaza.

3) Now before agreement openning Ma'ale Adumim and Ariel to Palestinians will lead to agressions. I think you miss the reality where most people are not you or me and they are much more easy to be flamed and get into aggression. you need one aggresive person to create crisis with killed ppl and we all should be carefull from imposing our good moral stand on every one as if we are all copies of "Fred Schlomka"
Dear Sandra,

I even agree with some of the thing you say, so out of context I may say same things as Liberman and that does not make me supporter of his ways as you try to claim.

in this case I do not agree, I think that the main issues of the borders is that they will support two main goals:
1) establishment of sustainable healthy palestinian state
2) safe enough for Israel security.

I do not think it need to be based on this "demographic realities" as it a one social system in my eyes who needs to have two state stage.
Good for you American, the reality here is different and we need to avoid this american ethical colonialism where it does not serve the Palestinians and the Israelis together.

Israel and Palestine are not yet a federation, so we should get real.
What is the territory you call "palestine "?
What do you think Arab Israeli citizens should do, do you know that some of them feel conftable as Israelis?
First Female Arab Combat Soldier in IDF is Proud to Serve Israel

First female Arab soldier joins elite unit 669
Dear Sandra

"The Hamas government are criminals my friend and you cannot no matter how you try prove other wise. "
can be said too, and where ot is lead us? to think that a arab from Gaza cannot see in the eyes of the child the core consiousness bond we all have.

these are words of blindness, it is one sided blame that lead to hate and agression and I think you miss that it actually direct people to violance, because if some one is criminal we have justification to use force on him.

I am sure you wish us peace here, but I think you are missing the ability to understand the Israeli phenomena and for you it is a sign of Evil. this is sad to see peace activists who practice one sided wolrd view and miss that we all children and we are all one human system and this include all children even the ones who do not like us.
Sussan

There are many maps and interpertation.

If israel get off palestine everyone be happy Jews have country Muslims have country


1) There are many Muslim Arab countries where there is one Jewish state
2) There was neve Palestine state before as independed
3) Palestinian radicals claim all the territory of Mandatory Palestine to the Arab people who lived in this region. for them Palestine is all the territory and there is no room for Jewish independed state.
4) Jewish radicals claim all the territory of biblical ERETZ ISRAEL to the Jews who expelled from this region 2000 years ago. for them there is no Palestine and it is all the territory of the future religius state and there is no room for Arabs and the should move to arab states (or jordan).

I know you wish well, but the conflict is complex and I think we need to work from concepts of future (creating Palestinian state in ~67 borders territory) but it is not "get off palestine" it is more of "creating Palestine"
1) There are many Muslim Arab countries where there is one Jewish state

++++ Like numbers count on this case.


2) There was neve Palestine state before as independed

++++ Irrelevant. All states today has been created from zero. Maybe some states have been before as kingdom, or what ever was situation before. That sounds like that these and those cant make state of their own, because they didnt have BEFORE a state. And nation states etc. overall are creation of 1800- century development. Before 1800's, no modern day nation states exist. None.


3) Palestinian radicals claim all the territory of Mandatory Palestine to the Arab people who lived in this region. for them Palestine is all the territory and there is no room for Jewish independed state.
4) Jewish radicals claim all the territory of biblical ERETZ ISRAEL to the Jews who expelled from this region 2000 years ago. for them there is no Palestine and it is all the territory of the future religius state and there is no room for Arabs and the should move to arab states (or jordan).

++++ Romans didnt expel jews from area. Thats myth. That wasnt roman habit. I think we have discussed this in here before. National myths are the strongest ones, which are difficult to beat.

I give one example now that romans are involved. Old myth that barbarians and vandals destroyed Rome. Never happened. Barbarians and vandals conquered Rome few times yes. Destroy ? Nope. Loot ? Yes. Kill Rome citizens ? In first couple tours very few. In last big offensive maybe some hundred, but there is reason for that. But thats a another story.



I know you wish well, but the conflict is complex

++++ No, its very simple really.

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