for me i just initiated this discution to motivate others to start thinking of planing to do things to make this world more peacefull . now your turn
My original plan was only for peace and justice and democracy for all Palestinians. That was a desire, and passion I had, back in the 1970’s.
Now, I see that justice for Palestine is the start of justice for everyone. This is because the case of Palestine is so well documented. It is like the Holocaust, once the journalists have the freedom to move in and examine the real situation, no one will ever again be in any doubt about what has happened.
Everyone will want to make sure that nothing like what happened to the Palestinians ever happens again.
Freedom for Palestine is the beginning of the end of the ruthless exploitation that has been so common throughout this planet.
One thing that made me understand the Holocaust, and human rights abuse in general, was the Armenian Genocide. It was a verbatim to the Holocaust. The major difference between the two, is that after Word War II, there was the Nuremberg Trials, in which the defendants were not tried guilty over just the Holocaust, but for the treatment of everybody affected by World War II. In the Soviet Union alone, it was 26.6 million civilians and 8.7 million military personnel. After World War I, there never was an international tribunal to convict those involved in the wide scale massacre of civilians in Belgium, Serbia, and the Ottoman Empire. The Armenian Revolutionary Federation tracked down Taalat Bey, the former Ottoman Minister of the Interior who was responsible for initiating the death marches out into the desert, and shot him in Berlin, where he fled there after World War I. The assassin was acquitted, after German missionaries who were in the Ottoman Empire, testified on his behalf. It is like what Martin Luther King, Jr. said "Injustice somewhere in the world, is injustice everywhere in the world." The way I help Palestinians achieved justice, is by actively campaigning for a two-state solution, where an independent Palestine can live alongside an independent Israel.
Tim, I am curious hoe this will achieve peace for the worlds most oppressed peoples as well as for Jews and Israelis. I guess Gaza has not taught us anything? The Arab world is in turmoil, Africa is on fire and all we, on this blog, think about is Palestine. I am really and truly amazed at the wanton hypocrisy.
Just to be clea 26.6 million civillian causualties of teh Solviets, as horrible as it was is not the Holocast. These are in general civillian casualties of war. The Holocast is the systemactic murder of a nation, has nothing to do with a war.
Genocide is not a spontaneous event. It is a planned event. Scholars who have studied genocide, agreed that is an event that is executed in times of war. Massacre of Armenians took place before World War I, and massacre of Jews took place before World War II, but the final solutions were enacted during times of war. One of those incarcerated in concentration camps were Soviet prisoners of war. The rebellion at Sobibor was led by a Soviet POW. After Operation Barbarossa, whole Soviet divisions fled out into the forests, to fight partisan campaigns against the Nazis. They got their food and logistics from civilians. When it was discovered which towns and villages were behind this, then all of the civilians were massacred, which is the reason behind the high death among Soviet civilians. In fact, Soviet war dead are honored at Mount Herzl. The Holocaust would have never been in enacted if they was not a war, because when it was discovered by the British incepting German messages, the joint Allied statement was, stop the war, and the massacre will stop. I think one can be in contact with their Jewish identity without minimizing the suffering of others. I know what will be said "But you are not Jewish, you are just making that all up." I should be the one who determines that, not ones whose political beliefs differ from mine.
Tim. There is a large dividing line between casualties of war , massacres and a HOLOCAUST. While the Armenian holocaust was a dress reversal ,it nevertheless does not approach even closely to the Holocaust of the Jews during WW2. The Armenians were not systematically murdered to obliterate them as a Nation while the Jews were. You are not Jewish so you cannot imagine and while you are not making it up, you seem to be minimizing and making this into a political issue. It is not. Sematics and politics have no place in this discussion.
BTW. I am still awaiting your reply as to how the gist of this blog will bring peace.
When the Young Turks had their party meeting in Sslonika in 1911, it was to be the final solution for obliterating the Armenian nation. It was in 1400, that the Turks finally conquered all of the Armenia. So Armenia ended its statehood much later then Israel lost its. Having hysterical emotions does not make someone Jewish, it just makes you an individual with hysterical emotions. Just because the late Meir Kahane had hysterical emotions, does not mean that he was more Jewish than I am. So if I am to be defined Jewish by being hysterical, than I just will not do it. How this blog can contribute to peace, is by having individuals state what they have done to contribute to peace. I have done so by lobbying for peace initiatives in the U.S. Congress. This website has been heavily loaded with political stands, which does not make me unpopular with everyone on it, just two individuals.
Again for clarity let me restate that the Holocaust is not a Political issue but rather an issue of genocide. I would be interested in hearing what you have been lobbying the U.S congress on. I will presume that it has nothing to do with the bloodbath in Syria or even Sudan or the Congo or the myriad of other hot conflicts around the world. I would be interested in reading your letters on behalf on those lobbying efforts.
The best way to achieve peace is to allow the combatants/enemies to settle their own affairs without any interference. The USA nor the EU/UN have successfully brought peace anywhere where the feuding parties did not want to achieve peace.The USA di not bring peace to Korea, to Vietnam to Iraq or Afghanistan and neither did the Russians in Chechnya or Gruzia or Afghanistan. Rwanda was a disaster as was the Congo and Bosnia and Uganda and Rhodesia. So lobbying the U.S congress is just a collossal waste of time.
I would suggest that you lobby Hamas, Hizbulla and especially Abbass to drop his pre-conditions and start negotiating in good faith. Israel is not a fiefdom of the US, the EU or the UN and never will be.
The Spaniard, the French, the British simply have deaf ears when it affects their separatist problems but freely dispense advise to everyone else. The days of Colonialism are long gone and their histories should not be emulated.
It does not matter whether you are popular or not, as you are not the issue: Israel is and it has no desire or inclination to listen to you as compared to its own electorate.
Actually, I have been lobbying and writing about Hamas a great deal, because of the atrocious way they have handled Gaza's economy. Also, the Palestinian Authority with President Mahmoud Abbas. but not Hezbollah, because they are more of an internal factor within Lebanon. The United States provides a great deal of aid to the Palestinians, and I lobbied for H. Res. 34, which is putting a great deal of conditions on aid to Gaza, because of Hamas making life miserable for the Palestinians there, as much as for the Israelis. Israel is not a fiefdom, but it is supporting Israel in its quest for peace, and Israel just showed this by forming a coalition with Kadima. So it is not that outsiders are trying to undermine, but to assist, and I have dealt with a great deal with non-government organizations within Israel, who feel the same way I do. The situation in Bosnia was handled by the Dayton Accords, which finally brought peace to the country, and I was in Sarajevo when the city was under siege. Bringing peace requires a lot of perseverance, which I have been applying. It is my hope that other parties, whether they are American, European, Israeli, and Palestinian will joining along with me. So far they have.
Here is one of Igor’s blogs:
3 years on, and nothing has changed:
Comment by JC | WorriedLebanese on May 19, 2009 at 2:37am
It seems obvious to me that the flaws in your arguments are intentional. Your aim is clearly to silence all who do not abide by your thinking. And instead of engaging in dialogue, you choose to rephrase your initial argument and to hammer it into our heads.
Sussan. I have seen many voices being silenced here while you are still posting. Propaganda must be met with a resolute denial and if that propaganda does not change than neither does the denial.
Arabs have yet to acknowledge that Jews belong in the Middle East, that they caused much suffering in 1947 by invading and creating a refugee problem on both sides. But most of all they must stop their militants from acquiring rockets to kill maim and terrorize Israelis.