I live in Israel and consider myself open minded.  I truly believe that a two state solution is the only real means to solve the conflict in the Mideast.  On the other hand, as a liberal individual, I can not see myself supporting regimes that are brutal to their own people and take away most of their human rights?

Why is it that the biggest peace activists are seen supporting dictatorships in Cuba, Iraq (Saddam), Syria  and the worst human rights abusers like Hamas and Iran.... these are just a few countries that give women few if any rights, don't have fair election, if at all, no freedom of speech, press or Assembly and persecute other religions, gays and other ethnicities....

How can this be accepted?  Why is America and Israel, be in they are far from perfect, always the bad guys?  Why is it the UN human rights council says nothing about the mass murder in Sudan or Congo, the Iranian murder of their people on the street, the missile attacks into Israel cites etc.... Why are these atrocities ignored?

Hamas is part of the Moslem Brotherhood, the umbrella organization that includes Al-Qaeda and connected to the Taliban.  Is that our hope for the people in Gaza to be ruled by the Taliban.  If you are Gay, women, Fatah, Christian life in Gaza is beyond intolerable.... Internet caffe's are being torched there is no freedom of the press...

Does anyone believe that Palestinians will have self determination as individuals under a Palestinian state?

How can we, who do "we"as humanitarians support such brutal regimes?  Why does no body stand up and say it is wrong?

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I guess we can all throw out websites -
Look how many countries are free in all the mideast and North Africa , surprise surprise just one, Israel...

My only obsession with Arab countries is that these are the ones living in the region we are talking about... I just dont think we should ignore their horrible human rights record.

I dont like playing this game lets just agree that human rights abuser should not be ignored in any country and should never be protected. In Israel if we think the government is doing wrong as a democracy we can get rid of it and we do quite often.... Other countries do not have that option - lets not protect their dictators.

Basil - I am sorry you think my comments are racist they were not meant to be such... Regarding the statement "You said it was no big deal when Israeli soldiers permitted their allies to kill Palestinians" - I NEVER said that. What I said is that it was Arabs who were killing Arabs. This has been happening for centuries and it is nothing new.... As horrible as Israel is Arab countries do much more harm to their populations than Israel ever can. I never said Israel was innocent, i said they were not directly responsible...

I have no idea who Bashir Gemayel is but Moshe Dovid disagrees.... One persons testimony is not at issue here and I have no interest in talking about an incedent that happened almost 30 years ago. I am talking about now.

As for Israeli commissions - Israeli judicial system is independent of the government and criticizes it all the time. It punishes is and forces it to change it policies - like most democracies... As apposed to the Hague were the jurors have major political motive. How can you look at a human rights committee where Tunicia , algeria and Egypt are members - they have horrible human rights record. Funny how this UN committee has yet to say anything about the murders in Daufor... These international bodies are all tainted with politics - not worth anything.

" don't see the point if you don't like Arabs or have no sympathy for them" - I am not sure how you understand this from what I wrote. The whole point of this discussion was to free Arabs from their horrible dictatorships.... I dont like or even hate the arab regimes that has nothing to do with the people. I am looking to help them I wish they would have rights and a government who respects them...

Regarding the fact of what has happened/is happening to Christians in Gaza read up on it its all over.... As for killing the opposition well this is a simple fact I will not waste time arguing over it.
"Funny how this UN committee has yet to say anything about the murders in Daufor... These international bodies are all tainted with politics - not worth anything."

++++ Excuse me ? Give your source to this information.
Who wants to be the first little boy to tell the emperor he has no clothes?
So I have a question what has the UN done in Dafur? Have the noise from the millions killed there even close to the Israeli raid on the Flotilla. Turkey just murdered 150 PKK rebels... have you heard the UN say anything?

There is genocide happening in places all over Africa, serious human rights abuses all over Asia (China, Burma, laos..) You dont hear a peep from the UN. But a boat with activist armed with metal poles, knives and chain who come to break a military blockade and its all over the UN and the news...

Is that no strange to anyone?
"You dont hear a peep from the UN"

++++ So, from where have you tryied to find out about news mentioning UN and those places & incidents ?

And btw, that blockade is illegal too.
People support what they see is working. If a system is failing and no one has any solutions one guy stands above the rest and states the complaints you have been talking at your dinner table then that guy has my vote. A lot of people follow the wrong element in hopes they may be the right element. Everyone can not be a leader. It takes a special talent. Some leaders stand out and do some really great things. I can't address the Sudan or Congo unless, I go and spend hours in the UN and find out what has and has not been done. I think in the United States every 60 seconds someone dies of a gunshot wound. thats a lot of people dying. Every country has its pockets of little evil men wanting to place their name on the map of history and say they were something. The Hamas had some good ideas and I don't think they were prepared to take office. The mafia groups made a great business thrive with underground tunnels and million dollar over the night. Not all Hamas believe in wiping israel off the map although a good many are tied into the hesbolia and have that ignorant idea.

The cafe torchings are exactly what i have seen by young men who have seen so much destruction and are too young to want to live a good and normal life. they can't see past the pain of their families dying. The killing fields are so great it is going to take 80 years if peace can be regained.

Simply put you don't support brutal regimes. You fail to give them air and contirnue your programing and structure development in micro macro economics. you work with the individuals who are willing to listen. it doesn't matter which side of the fence just so they are doing and listening. lobbiest have a greater power and bring direct results. once programs are in place then the hate fields of these over grown thug gang groups will loose their control.
Good question and one I don't really know the answer to, to be honest. I'm also wary of supporting groups who support brutal regimes, not to mention that I'm also wary of spreading anything about anybody. If there's something worth reading and questioning, though, I'll pass it on.



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