Is Zionism a racist Ideology? What do you think?

Comment

Comment by Corey Gil-Shuster on January 28, 2010 at 3:44am

I see your point but I am telling you, as one of the Zionists you speak of that it is not true of me or most of the people I know. That doesn;'t mean it is not true for others.

Just because you copy and paste something from a web site from a meeting that I have never heard of that took place in 1968, does not make it absoloute truth. Because it is not true for me. But don't believe me, ask others.

Comment by Ohad Bracha on January 28, 2010 at 3:39am

Patrick I am an atheist. yet I live my life with connection to Jewish culture and values.
and I also speak Hebrew.

Comment by Patrick Anderson on January 28, 2010 at 3:30am

The preservation of the identity of the Jewish People through the fostering of Jewish and Hebrew education and of Jewish spiritual and cultural values

I'm not lecturing you on what it is to be Jewish Corey. I'm just pointing out how Zionism isn't a secular movement if it promotes Jewish spiritual and cultural values.


Do you see my point?

Comment by Ohad Bracha on January 27, 2010 at 11:05pm

Ha and Manal..

Kasah la panim is a Tel aviv slang its nothing offensive :) I thought you are familiar with it .

its basically means , yalla sababa and so on :)

Comment by Corey Gil-Shuster on January 27, 2010 at 10:26pm

The chosen people is a biblical statement therefore it is a religious idea. I took this from Wikipedia so you get the idea: "In Judaism, chosenness is the belief that the Jews are a people chosen to be in a covenant with God. In modern day Rabbinical Judaism, the idea is not connected with being the descendants of Jacob as it was in Biblical Judaism, since non-ethnic Jews can become Jews. The Jewish idea of being chosen is first found in the Torah (five books of Moses) and is elaborated on in later books of the Hebrew Bible. This status carries both responsibilities and blessings as described in the Biblical covenants with God. Much is written about this topic in rabbinic literature.
The chosenness refers to a specific set of responsibilities beyond the 7 Laws of Noah given to all mankind. It is every child of Noah's (non-Jewish person's) responsibility to live by the seven Noahide laws. Though not held by authority figures of the religious Jews around the world, there are people with the opinion that the acceptance to adhere to the laws and commandments of Judaism make the chosen-ness as one of the Jewish people choosing to be in the covenant with God, and not the other way around. Usual Orthodox thinking states that even completely secular Jews are part of the Jewish nation and are 'full-fledged' Jews."

Zionism was a mostly secular movement so there is little connection. No one ever said "we are the Chosen People therefore we deserve the land of Zion" etc. In fact, I only hear the term "chosen people" from the very religeous (or jokingly from secular people) and sometimes it is to distinguish Jews from non-Jews with (in my opinion) the intent of making being non-Jewish "less".

I am an atheist and don't believe in god in any way or form. I am against dehumanizing any group so of course the idea of being the chosen people is very far from my views as it is with almost everyone else I know who is Jewish (religious or not).

I don't mean to offend anyone or stop discussions but I do have to comment that I am having a hard time with people lecturing Jews about what it is to be Jewish. It is a little annoying. Imagine me giving Palestinians a lecture of what it is to be a Palesitnian based on what I read on the internet and knowing Palesitnians- how would I know what it is to be a Palestinian? I am happy to answer questions and I am very willing to be brutally honest about the uglier sides of being Jewish and Israel but it has to come in the form of a question, not a sermon.

The basis for the return to "Zion" is that for 2000 years Jews have been mourning the loss of our tribal homeland and many of Jewish prayers and customs are designed to remind us where we come from and that we would one day return. That is why it was to this land. Jews have always been coming back (my great, great grandfather is buried in Jerusalem) but it became a nationalist and political movement under European nationalist movements because the Jews of Europe had been abused and marginalized off and on for 2000 years. Jews from the Arab lands and Ethiopia were very quick to embrace Zionism (more or less- some comminities were less committed) because it was a religious and cultural drean of return. My husband's great grandparents came from Iraqi Kurdistan, Yemen and Persia in the early 1900s because they wanted to realize the relgious dream of returning to Zion. But still no connection to being a chosen people.

Comment by Ohad Bracha on January 27, 2010 at 10:18pm

Manal what do you want?

Why don't you just tell us what do you want? Your "zionism is racism" does not work because Israel is not a racist state. If you think that some one was racist to you, you can go to court, if you don't trust the Israeli court you can go to any other court in the world or the UN which Israel is a member of the sue us or who ever was racist to you.

But lets say that you have all the power in the world and you can do what ever you want? what would you do? what do you want to happen? what's your wish?

Comment by Manal Anna on January 27, 2010 at 9:57pm

Paul,
Do you see your comment as "lazy and under-informed thinking"?
Is it wrong to question what I think? Why should I be accused of "bigotry" for questioning what is already taken for granted in the Arab world. Instead of attacking me you should be wiser and convince me of your point of view.


Ohad,
Up till now, I have not seen any "love" in your comments. Besides the fact that you look so delicate and nice smelling that flower I have not seen any tender side of you! But do not worry; I do not take your words to my heart. I just do not like that you claim that I have said things I never said. I think this is one of the real obstacles for understanding each other. When we judge each other and start analyzing what the other think without really knowing if it is true or not…Also when a simple question can make you think that I am starting a war on you "act of war" as you put it. Think about it…. Please!
אם אני אישה נחמדה אז למה אתה רוצה לכסח לי את הפנים?
לא רוצה להתכסח
רוצה לשוחח
יצא לי חרוז

Paul,
Thank you for bringing that definition on racism, but I am not sure if nationalism is a form of racism, is it?

Corey,

How come Zionism does not claim that the Jews are the chosen people, then on which basis they want to "return" to the land of Zion??? Please enlighten me with your answer!


Good night all!
Peace
Manal

Comment by Patrick Anderson on January 27, 2010 at 9:25am

Corey Gil-Shuster said:

Zionism does not claim Jews are the chosen people- Judaism does.

The 28th Zionist Congress, meeting in Jerusalem 1968, adopted the five points of the "Jerusalem Program" as the aims of Zionism today. They are:

The unity of the Jewish People and the centrality of Israel in Jewish life
The ingathering of the Jewish People in its historic homeland, Eretz Israel, through Aliyah from all countries
The strengthening of the State of Israel which is based on the prophetic vision of justice and peace
The preservation of the identity of the Jewish People through the fostering of Jewish and Hebrew education and of Jewish spiritual and cultural values
The protection of Jewish rights everywhere

Jewish and Judaism are inseparable terms. Zionism does claim that Jews are 'the chosen people' because it promotes The preservation of the identity of the Jewish People through the fostering of Jewish and Hebrew education and of Jewish spiritual and cultural values

I'm sorry but the "Land without a people for a people without a land" argument doesn't wash with me.

Paul RETI said:

Jews are not a (pure) race.

This is semantic nonsense. How would you describe them as a grouping?

Manal has singled out this form of nationalism because it is the one causing a lot of the problems. It is the Settlers who believe that God has gifted the land to them and it is their divine arrogance that stops the issue fro ever being settled.

I'm sure there are similar extreme elements on the Palestinian side with a similar divine arrogance.

Paul. Please refrain from making ad hominem attacks.

Comment by Paul RETI on January 27, 2010 at 5:44am

And yes Manal. Judaism and Zionism and their many manifestations are different concepts. They are both aspects of the the least 3000 year old ongoing and consistently documented culture if "The Jewish People".

Comment by Paul RETI on January 27, 2010 at 5:40am

Patrick and Manal,

Jews are not a (pure) race. We all probably agree that all forms of nationalism are bigoted. However NOT all forms of nationalism are racist.

It seems to me that by singling out only one form of nationalism (Zionism) the way that Manal does in her introduction is lazy or under-informed thinking, or is just a textbook demonstration of the very bigotry Manal implicitly claims to abhor.

Moderators please note: My response above may be construed according to the mepeace guidelines to be "a personal attack on a fellow peacemaker" To some extent it is. It is harsh personal response to what I consider to an even more significant problem and ethical and moral transgression. That is the attempt by a peacemaker to simplistically and tritely smear a whole group people rather than simply any one person. Nevertheless I think that this is a necessary PUBLIC discussion in a forum like mepeace.org.

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